There’s a large population of technical writers in devrel. And a big number of these technical writers don’t necessarily come from technical backgrounds. So how do they do it? In this episode, Richard has a fascinating discussion on this topic and more with developer evangelist, Pavan Belegatti. Pavan transitioned from a marketer to a highly skilled technical writer. He’s a self-taught developer and he gives us an insight into the marriage between writing and coding.
In developing, there’s often either a developing to writing pipeline (Richard’s path) or a writing to developing pipeline (Pavan’s), and as someone who came to writing later in his career, Richard picks Pavan’s brain on the discipline of writing. How do you move from being a ten pages on Monday, one page on Tuesday kind of writer, to someone with a more consistent output? Pavan explains that a common oversight in technical writing is not knowing the product well enough. As the saying goes - in order to sell something, you have to buy it yourself first. And how can you do great technical writing without great knowledge of the subject matter?
Pavan is also a content creator and a conference speaker and organiser. All of this as he explains, is a key aspect of a career in devrel. It’s all about building trust with potential colleagues, and having a reputation you can refer back to. When it comes to all of this, consistency is key. It’s easy to feel down about low view counts, but what Pavan explains is that a small number of followers who love engaging with your content is so much more valuable than a thousand eyeballs who don’t.
With the devrel community in India growing rapidly, Richard asks about the recent advent of people leaving devrel to go back to developing. Is this just a micro-trend, or an indication of a bigger shift? According to Pavan, it comes down to knowing what industry you’re going into. He’s found what he loves to do, and he’s happy here. We couldn’t agree more!
Interview Intro
Richard Rodger: [0:00:00] Welcome to the Voxgig Podcast. We talk to people in the developer community about developer relations, public speaking and community events. For more details, visit voxgig.com/podcast. All right, let's get started.
Let's talk to Pavan Belagatti. We talk about the importance of technical writing as a skill for developer advocates. We talk about the rise of developer relations in the Indian tech scene and we speak about the importance of consistency in building your own brand as a developer advocate. This interview is all about the practical, day-to-day stuff.
All righty, let's talk to Pavan [0:00:41]
Main Interview
Pavan Belagatti
Richard Rodger: [0:00:42] Pavan, hello. It is great to have you here today on the Fireside with Voxgig podcast, talking about developer relations. Welcome. [0:00:49]
Pavan Belagatti: [0:00:51] Hi, Richard. I'm really grateful, and nice to be here. Let's go and talk about developer relations, content creation and all that, all of those things. [0:01:02]
Richard Rodger: [0:01:02] Cool. You have quite a bit of experience; you've been doing this for – you've been in this for quite a while. Let's start maybe with who you're currently working for, but also then, what are the three most important things that you've learned about developer relations? What's your advice to somebody who thinks maybe this is a career I want to do? [0:01:27]
Pavan Belagatti: [0:01:30] Currently, I'm working with SingleStore. So, they are this company, modern [inaudible, 0:01:35]. We have this company which most of the generative AI applications are using. And most of the big companies are using – Google or Sony; these guys are using SingleStore [inaudible, 0:01:48].
Richard Rodger: [0:01:49] Wow, that's-
Pavan Belagatti: [0:01:52] I started developer relations when I joined Harness; they gave me this opportunity to start as a developer relations guy, a developer advocate. Before that, I was not that – quite – I used to talk more about audio kind of things, thought leadership articles. But then there came a point where I had to become [inaudible, 0:02:14], to – because my audience is developers. Because I need to talk in their language; then only they'll understand. So, that's why I started writing a lot of [inaudible, 0:02:27] tutorials, not just for audio, more of hands-on tutorials.
So, that's one thing. People who want to pursue this developer relations, they should be well aware of what is happening in the industry, so that they can use that trending thing to talk about it, maybe write about it, like GitHubs, like serverless, like generative AI. Now generative AI is the buzz everywhere, so they should know that.
They should do content writing and they should also know how to talk on the stage, to go on different meetups and all, so – because end of the day, if they want to see who is the guy behind the scenes, who is just fighting, that's also one reason I'm doing these podcasts and also some videos. [0:03:16]
Richard Rodger: [0:03:17] I had a question for you, Pavan, which is, I know that writing is really important. And I started my career as just a plain software developer, so apart from writing some specifications or proposals, I didn't do a lot of writing for the first 10 years. And I did some writing in university, essays or whatever.
And I know it's important, but I find it very difficult. I find it very difficult to make sure I write one article a week or stick to a system. Sometimes I spend a whole morning and I write one article; yay, I wrote an article. But then nothing happens for a month. My open source is – documentation is the same. Some things are really well-documented; others are almost nothing. Do – where do you create the discipline to write? How can I do it professionally? [0:04:17]
Pavan Belagatti: [0:04:17] At the start, how did I start. I didn't know anything about dev ops, but then this company hired me as a marketing manager. What type of marketing will you do if you don't know the product, and also if you don't know where – which industry you're in? So, dev ops was very new to me. Then I started thinking, what type of – what reach all these developers?
One thing I understood in the beginning, that developers are the smartest folks; they're very creative folks. What kind of – most of them feel good taking their own guys, but they are shy. They want to stick to their laptops; they want to code; they want to – so, I'm like, "Why not take this opportunity? Try telling some of the stories that are there."
What type of, for example, database Uber is using, what type of – maybe what is service mesh? Just explaining in simple words, layman's terms, so that it can reach even the beginners and the [inaudible, 0:05:23] folks. That's how I started. That's how I started almost 4-5 years back, and I had to [inaudible, 0:05:31].
Initially, I went two likes, three likes; there was no reach. But I got to know that if I have to be in the industry, you need to be consistent. I remember that time I got [inaudible 0:05:45] what my – I should not be coding because it takes a lot of time. I don't know how good I will be if I start coding and all. But that was not wrong; it's just that I was – as I said, I should have started already. But the coding stopped, but I started – last two years, I started coding, and I understand Node.js and Python.
Yes, consistency is very important when creating content, like you said. One month, you just see – you feel like, "Nothing is happening. This is not so, and that should not be the case. You should be consistent enough; you should be" – and also, connecting with the right people also makes a lot of sense.
I'm a dev ops guy in a – working in a dev ops company as a tech marketer or developer advocacy. I'm connecting to some data science folks. There's a kind of mismatch. They might not like much about many things what I might be writing, because I'm not talking much about data science and what they want.
It also – that's how I started doing; let me see who are these guys who are liking my posts. Let me go and connect with them. I started that – those things are really important, connecting with the right people so that you can create the right content. And also, the timing, because I want – if I just create in the Indian timezone, maybe LinkedIn's algorithm will not show it to the nesting box. So, I started creating two posts, one for Indian time, 11am, and in the night-time, my night-time, around 8pm IST, 9pm. I try to create it so that it reaches that part of the world also. [0:07:37[
Richard Rodger: [0:07:39] So, pay attention to timezones for sure. And to achieve consistency, do you just do that with a regular schedule or do you use any tools like content calendars? Or is it just discipline? [0:07:56]
Pavan Belagatti: [0:08:00] This comes down to – this is what I do, even if I join a company. I – you can call it a fancy name like [inaudible, 0:08:10], what some call [inaudible, 0:08:13] . You can call it mutual activity, technical; if a company hires you, you will be called developer advocate or a technical evangelist or developer evangelists.
End of the day, that's what my thing is. So, I did not follow any kind of schedule, but I knew that two posts – let's not make it more complicated that – let's not bombard my audience on my – so I said, "No, that's false. It should not take this much time. It's irritating. [Inaudible, 0:08:43]. People who properly – engineering stories. Telling them not just the [inaudible, 0:08:55], not just the partnership type. Because people want to see some core and also that. So, I slowly started writing technical tutorials. [0:09:05]
Richard Rodger: [0:09:07] Gotcha. And do you work on the community side as well, so meetups, conferences, that type of stuff? [0:09:13]
Pavan Belagatti: [0:09:13] Yeah.
Richard Rodger: [0:09:13] Do you organize or do you speak or attend? [0:09:16]
Pavan Belagatti: [0:09:17] I did all that in my journey. I helped organize small meetups and small conferences. And also, I attend – as far as developer advocacy team, I attend some conferences. [0:09:34]
Richard Rodger: [0:09:36] So, why – if I'm running a new software as a service company, dev tools company, why should I set up a meetup? [0:09:45]
Pavan Belagatti: [0:09:47] You mean the meetup.com; is it? [0:09:49]
Richard Rodger: [0:09:49] Yeah, why should I run a meetup? [0:09:50]
Pavan Belagatti: [0:09:50] The people who come to meetups, it's like physical – there are online events and physical events, but meetups used to happen physically before. Now after COVID, it's all online, but now again the physical events are taking place. Folks who want to attend your meetups, they usually happen in Saturday and Sundays, their weekend. Folks are – I know senior folks would want that, so you know your products and services. So, I believe that's why it's very important even if 10 people attend your meetups and meetups or conferences. [0:10:30]
Richard Rodger: [0:10:33] Okay, so let's get onto some of the more difficult questions. Some people say that the – or some perhaps non-technical leadership in some companies would see developer relations as just another part of sales. You're supposed to be generating leads. And a lot of people in developer relations feel it's more about community building, but companies must make money, so how do you balance this need for sales with treating developers the right way? [0:11:14]
Pavan Belagatti: [0:11:18] This is quite a question that is – that comes up every now and then. That – where developer relations fitting? Is it- [0:11:25]
Richard Rodger: [0:11:25] Yes.
Pavan Belagatti: [0:11:28] Should they be under engineering, or should they be under marketing? I feel it's the balance that makes it go really smooth in the companies. What I believe is without [inaudible, 0:11:44] influence, not just talking about their companies, about their company products or services, but telling folks the right way to do engineering.
But in between, you need to talk about your company stuff, but that, the audience will understand. I know this guy is from SingleStore; that's why he wants us to use SingleStore database, because SingleStore database is called the high-powered because of the generative AI applications.
So, I don't do that. That's why I always feel that if you're in marketing, the marketing or a developer advocate, a little bit of influencer side is also good for you, [inaudible, 0:12:28] when they're following, because you act as a face of the company. So, that's what I believe anyway. Even I- [0:12:40]
Richard Rodger: Talking – we were talking about this a little bit before we started recording, Pavan. The other challenge with that is, you have this personal brand. A lot of developer relations people end up with this personal brand. How important is that? [0:12:56]
Pavan Belagatti: [0:12:58] Very much. If you ask me, we – I'll be very biased, because I have a [inaudible, 0:13:06.] in there That's why I wanted to become, because I started my career as a growth hacker, when marketing gave it a fancy name called growth hacking. Unconventional ways of reaching out to your audience or making some – do some marketing strategies. You can name it anything, but at the end of the day, even now with the generative AI, anybody can write. How do you differentiate who is the invisible guy here?
So, what makes more sense now is, maybe Richard has very hard [inaudible, 0:13:42]. Or some new guy has written whose name you don't know in the industry much, and seems to write about [inaudible, 0:13:50.]. That's how the the industry thinks. Because when I started pitching initially in my career to the publications – I have written one article; can you publish it on our website.
They said, "Who are you? What is the practical that you have? Have you done this before?" That's when I started writing on Medium, [inaudible, 0:14:17], on my LinkedIn, because these are free servers, free tech, where you can just go sign up and start writing. Personal branding is very important, but you need to- [0:14:28]
Richard Rodger: [0:14:28] But that brings another issue, which is, do you just end up chasing followers then? I want to get 5K followers and 10K. And you start writing content that's clickbait and not valuable, so where's the balance? 0:14:43]
Pavan Belagatti: [0:14:44] It's always the balance, but to – but you need to validate your [inaudible, 0:14:44.] You lose [0:14:53] and all these mediums where it's free; they just go. You might add some things and all, but at the end of the day, that's not – that will not bring you any leads. You will end up with maybe more likes and so again. But that's again a bad reputation for you and your company; people talk about it. [0:14:53]
Richard Rodger: [0:14:53] It doesn't build your brand, does it? [0:15:19]
Pavan Belagatti: [0:15:20] Then your company will say, "You've written hat, but it's not bringing us anything." I can tell them, "It's getting us more likes," but that doesn't validate the board. End of the day, it's again the quality over the quantity. [0:15:35[
Richard Rodger: [0:15:39] You've worked in developer relations and developer advocacy in a number of different companies. Did they all use the kinds of measurements or different measurements or no measurement? This is a big question, of course. [0:15:53]
Pavan Belagatti: [0:15:56] It depends on the manager to manager. Some people wanted more leads no matter what. Whether it's a quality lead or whether it is someone coming in giving their [inaudible, 0:16:07] and just going away, not – it doesn't work. Some people wanted more quality [inaudible, 0:16:13]. They wanted to see which – who is this guy that signed up to our webinar. Who is this guy who signed up for our free trial? It depends on company to company and the manager to manager, but I always- [0:16:28]
Richard Rodger: [0:16:29] This is – it's exciting because it's new, but it's also very frustrating for people who work in developer relations, because – and you've just shown this. And it happens again and again with a lot of people. Every company is different. There doesn't seem to be a best practice.
I feel it must be – there must be another five years before we all collectively decide on what the real best practice is. Everybody knows with software development, you should have unit testing and CI/CD and you should be using infrastructure as code. But what are the same things with developer relations? I don't know yet. What is the right way to do it? [0:17:13]
Pavan Belagatti: [0:17:15] It's still – I believe it's new. It's not – I would not say it's very new; it's [inaudible, 0:17:24.] Because most of the software engineers soon became developer advocates, because they knew coding; they knew exactly how developers think. But now I see that most of the non-technical folks like me also becoming developer advocates.
And lots of companies have – I see most of the companies have this [inaudible, 0:17:24] that where developer advocacy fits in in their department. I think it takes more time, just like dev ops. How will you define dev ops in – different companies will have different definitions of dev ops. [0:18:02]
Richard Rodger: [0:18:04] Another question I had had for you is, is developer relations a good career choice in India? If you're an Indian developer and you're looking at developer relations, do you think it's – the Indian IT scene, software developer scene is really huge. Is there significant differences with, if you decide to be a developer relations in Europe or America? I'd just like to get some – get an interesting perspective on that. [0:18:36]
Pavan Belagatti: [0:18:37] Yeah, very interesting question. I see developer advocates slowly popping up in India, because India produces more number of engineers, software engineers. So, why not have one of your developer advocates in India.
So that – he's technical and he can also reach out to a lot of folks out here, that if you had to come down from US and UK, it's going to take not just money and your time and all that. But having a developer advocate here in India is incredibly important, is what I am saying. Another issue, some of my friends becoming developer advocates, which was not the trend before. [0:19:21]
Richard Rodger: [0:19:24] And do you think Indian software startups, software as a service companies, dev tools companies, are we starting to see more developer relations activity from them? Is this now considered a more important activity in the company? [0:19:43]
Pavan Belagatti: [0:19:44] Yeah, yeah. Even I see that a lot of the startups, Indian startups, they are hiring developer advocates these days. [0:19:52]
Richard Rodger: [0:19:54] Yeah, it's good to hear. We do this, so we believe in the career. There are some people and some blog posts and videos recently of people who were working as developer advocates and have decided to stop and go back to being developers.
And the main problem that they say is, they don't see a way to improve their career. They're afraid of getting stuck. That it's very hard – where do you go? Where does a developer advocate go? Maybe then you become a manager of developer advocates. Do you have any concerns about that? Do you worry about that at all? [0:20:44]
Pavan Belagatti: [0:20:47] I don't worry about it. This is where I want to be and I'm very happy doing this. It comes down to your personal choice. You might be liking more – you might be thinking that developer advocacy is more of coding. But it is not actually coding. It's a balance of both marketing – and you need to be well-versed with your coding skills also, on a day-to-day basis, to understand your product and all that.
But like I say, it's the [inaudible, 0:21:21] that you have, and also, you might have been in the wrong company and the wrong people, who might be telling you – you might be good at coding, but they might be telling you, "Just go and seek that. We just want you to do that." They go just to content writing; I want to do that. Then you are perpetual chain. You will be thinking, I really like coding. Should I be doing this thing?
If it happens to the [inaudible, 0:21:52] your career, but [inaudible, 0:21:54] is not for me because I like coding. But for me, it's the other way around. I come from a non-tech background; I started to become a developer because she has given me both marketing side of me but also the technical side of me. So, I balance it out and it's working for me. [0:22:11]
Richard Rodger: [0:22:13] Yeah, okay. Those are good points, and it's fair to say that if you work as a developer advocate, you do a lot of different things. There's a lot of context switching, different types of jobs, and you have to like that. If you want to – as you say, if you're a shy developer and you just want to code, you can see how you would be unhappy, because you're not able to code all the time. That is an important thing to realize; it is not for everybody. You have to be generalist, right? [0:22:49]
Pavan Belagatti: [0:22:49] Exactly. It all depends on the big companies and the startups. [0:22:55]
Richard Rodger: [0:22:55] And the company.
Pavan Belagatti: [0:22:56] You might define developer advocacy according to their rules. [0:22:59]
Richard Rodger: [0:23:01] In a startup, you have to do everything, which is- [0:23:04]
Pavan Belagatti: [0:23:04] A lot of things.
Richard Rodger: [0:23:05] Which is the problem. And sometimes the founders expect you to be a developer relations team and not just one developer advocate, and do all the stuff. In a bigger company you can specialize, maybe do more of the codes, samples, versus the conference speaking or whatever.
I am going to finish with one other question, one final question. How important is open-source participation to being a developer advocate, to building your personal brand? This goes back to a point that you made about – you have to be believable with your content. If you're just writing clickbait, it's not believable. Does making open-source contributions help to make you trust – help people to trust you as a developer, or a developer advocate. [0:23:59]
Pavan Belagatti: [0:23:59] Yeah, of course. And to me, I'm not – for me, it's not the right thing, because I don’t come from a coding or a programming background. But I am contributing to open-source, where I give a lot of [inaudible, 0:23:59], that you can tell the company that is hiring you that whatever they do, communities, I have contributed to this part of the open-source project. Then that gives you – they will understand this guy has more potential; he can do it. And also, contributing to open source will give that personal brand that we were talking about. You share- [0:24:38]
Richard Rodger: [0:24:38] I would say you are able to contribute to open source in a much more important way, because the thing that's missing from a lot of open source is good documentation and examples and all that stuff. So, what a lot of open-source projects are missing is good writing. So, I would say to you, you could make a big impact, bigger than you think. [0:24:59]
Pavan Belagatti: [0:25:00] Yeah. Someday I take some time and maybe do that. [0:25:05]
Richard Rodger: [0:25:07] The – yeah, it's funny, because a lot of developers just do open source because they want to write their own code. But then it gets used by people and then there's documentation. And I'm guilty of this as well, because it's hard to write the documentation. A lot of open-source projects are very grateful for anybody who writes documentation for them. I would say that's a market opportunity; that's definitely a place where you can make an impact. [0:25:37]
Pavan Belagatti: [0:25:38] Yes.
Richard Rodger: [0:25:41] Pavan, thank you so much. This has been really interesting, and really glad to have you and to talk about developer relations. And also, you offer a lot of encouragement to someone who didn't start out as a coder, but it's a perfectly valid career path. So, thank you very much. [0:26:00]
Pavan Belagatti: [0:26:01] Thanks, Richard, thanks for having me. [0:26:02]
Richard Rodger: [0:26:03] Wonderful. Goodbye. [0:26:04]
Pavan Belagatti: [0:26:05] Bye-bye.
Endnote
Richard Rodger: [0:26:06] You can find the transcript of this podcast and any links mentioned on our podcast page at Voxgig.com/podcast. Subscribe for weekly editions, where we talk to the people who make the developer community work. For even more, read our newsletter. You can subscribe at voxgig.com/newsletter, or follow our Twitter @voxgig. Thanks for listening. Catch you next time. [0.26.35]