In this podcast we talk to people from across the spectrum of developer relations, from vice presidents, to experienced developer relations professionals, public speakers, event organisers and community builders – and to those just starting out on their developer relations career. This week, Richard talks to Lewis Meyers in an open, honest and fascinating conversation about breaking in to the tech industry from a military and martial arts background. Lewis did a bootcamp, and they discuss the attitude towards bootcamps and his experience as a bootcamp student.
They also discuss in depth the wide divergence of approaches companies take when hiring developer relations. As Lewis puts it, they tend to lean more heavily on one or two of the 3 Cs (code, content and community), and some will be explicit, others won’t really know until they are part way through the hiring process! So you need to be clear on what you are and what drives you in developer relations.
Lewis thinks so deeply about his craft and his career choices, that he and Richard have a discussion on how the tech industry could be improved with perhaps a bit more professionalism - and intentional humility and willingness to serve.
Interview Intro
Richard Rodger: [0:00:00] Welcome to the Voxgig Podcast. We talk to people in the developer community about developer relations, public speaking and community events. For more details, visit voxgig.com/podcast. All right, let's get started.
On this podcast, we talk to people across the developer relations spectrum, and that includes everybody from vice presidents to people who are just getting started. And today, we talk to Lewis Meyers, someone who is beginning their developer relations career. This is an extremely candid interview, and I really admire Lewis for his courage in discussing active job search. He is out there looking for a developer relations role, and he discusses how hard it is in the current climate, and how difficult it is to go from having learned coding in a bootcamp to being accepted in a developer relations context. And before you ask, yeah, he can code.
Lewis's observations, from a wide-ranging job-search talking to many companies, are that some companies, when they're looking for developer advocates, tend to focus on the developer side of things, whereas other companies tend to focus on the community side of things, so it's helpful to know where you fit on that particular spectrum.
We also talk a little bit about the chaos that is software development, and how we still have to figure out how to run software development organizations in the best way possible. Lewis's experience in the military mean that he has a fresh and interesting perspective on our foibles in this little industry. All right, let us get started. [0:01:44]
Main Interview
Lewis Meyers
Richard Rodger: [0:01:46] Lewis, welcome to the Fireside with Voxgig podcast. It's great to have you on today. How are you doing, sir? [0:01:51]
Lewis Meyers: [0:01:52] I'm doing phenomenally. I'm honored to be here and I really appreciate it, Richard, so, thank you. [0:01:55]
Richard Rodger: [0:01:57] Awesome. So, we are trying to talk to as many different people in developer relations as possible, everybody from VPs to people that are just getting started. When I saw your tweets and your activity and community engagement and all that sort of stuff, I think, that is a really interesting guy who's a little bit self-made.
You've only just started out in developer relations, so there's a bunch of stuff I want to ask you that I'm interested in which is your impressions of the dev rel world, your impressions of developers, all that sort of stuff. But let's start at the start. How did you end up working in developer relations? Where did you start first? How did you find developer relations as something you could do? Just walk us through this life story. [0:02:47]
Lewis Meyers: [0:02:51] I'll try to condense it without too much, but I first found the tech space – there's a startup called Career Karma. And the whole purpose of Career Karma is – their motto is: bringing the world's talent to their next opportunity. I saw an ad for it. This was – it was 9.30 at night, and I remember this vividly. I was crying, and we had – where I currently live – that's not where I was – there was a very small place. And I was on the couch; I was crying. And my kids were asleep and my wife was in the kitchen, which was also in the living room, which was also the – it's really small.
So, I picked through my phone on Instagram and I'm crying, so – because I don't have a job. And it's not social media; it's just the I want to. I have to; I need to; I desire to deliver my family to a better life that I promised my wife when we got married, and I promised my kids. And so, I – on Instagram, I'm swiping through and I see an ad for Career Karma and I download the app.
Second nature, so it must have been God sent, because I believe it. It was like tunnel vision; just like I met my wife. I downloaded t4he app, and then the very next morning, around 12.30pm, my first – they offer life coaching sessions. And so, where you go and you ask questions about – or you get some information about how you can get into the tech space without a degree.
That's the whole purpose of Career Karma, sharing information that you don't need a degree; you just need the skills and correlate that with the market. That's what employers want. Yeah, you might still see, and it's obvious companies are still biased with degrees, but there's quite a few companies that could care less, as long as you can do the job exceptionally, to their standard.
And so, I asked that question, 'How can I do this?' So, I quite literally hit them with 21 questions. And I'm like, 'How do I become a software engineer.' So, you can go to a bootcamp. 72 hours later, I was on my – I was on a call with the head of admissions, and I had enrolled into the tech academy for software engineering.
I strategically chose that because – elephant in the room – it's money, lots of money, and I like tech. And I was inspired – I was – it felt good to know that I don't need a degree, because I – even though I'm going to go to college in the next few years for my own reasons, not for a company's reasons, unless they pay for it and that's different. But I'll be – you know, this is an opportunity. It's something I really like, and it's not scary.
So, I went through that for about seven months; graduated April of 2022. And while I was doing that, of course, I still have my kids, and I also had accepted a career coaching role at Career Karma part-time. So, I was- I wanted to give back, and that's where my developer relations had started, right there. A developer advocate had walked in on one of my sessions a few months in – or about a year in, a year and some change. And they said, 'You know you do developer relations stuff?' I'm like, 'Okay.' [0:05:50]
Richard Rodger: [0:05:51] What is that?
Lewis Meyers: [0:05:52] Right. So – because I had shown interest in it. And because you know, during my time, working at Career Karma, while I'm going actively into bootcamp and trying to be a halfway decent father and a husband, 90% of my time is in that, of coding and trying to not completely implode. I wanted to know more of how can I be a better developer.
I graduated, again in April of 2022, so for about those 60 days – and I did receive an offer right after I graduated. I just couldn't take it because it just didn't work out. That was dead puncher. Because they offered. That was the first time I'd actually seen – I can't believe it; it's a real offer. And right after. And I had applied to that a month and a half before I graduated, so I get to not only say I got an offer before I graduated. I get to say it was with United Health Group. Couldn't take it though, but that's okay; it gave me enough hope.
And so, for about 60 days, I had time and space complexity. The chart right behind my head, on my whiteboard. And I would stare at it, and I would do everything I could to code. And I was a part of so many discord communities. I was a part of so many other communities of – immersing myself: Free Code Camp, Udemy, Coursera, Danny Thompson's Discord Community, Python Discord Communities, Leon Noel, 100Devs, all of these communities.
And it was in working with other newer developers, older developers, trying to understand. And I didn't notice at the time, for those 60 days, I was running in a circle. Because I didn’t notice that I was – I'm pretty good at talking to people and I really like it. 10 years in martial arts, you – I love people.
Having the honor of teaching someone with severe Down Syndrome for multiple years, being looked at by the parent for the first year, of 'Are you worth this money that I'm paying?' Not that it's ended, but coming to a point where it's like, 'Hey come to the house. We're having a cookout.' And being able to teach somebody like this how to spin, kick – how to spin, jump and kick all at the same time, someone who on paper is not supposed to be able to do that.
And then work with different presidents and executives of different companies in martial arts; take that into the military. Now how do I translate my love for people into the military, where I have a big gun. My environment is not necessarily conducive to positivity at times; it's the army.
So, we get – I wanted to do it with one, but it's not as pretty as people would think. I hope no-one thinks the army is pretty; it's not. But it's really fun. But how do I take that, and how do I – these different dynamics. Now there's a general that wants to talk to me. Now a buddy of mine who works in headquarters with the lieutenants and the full-board colonels that run the whole brigade, how do I cultivate those relationships and be professional? Because that's what the army wants. It's what it is; be professional.
And now in tech, now how do I take these experiences of this grit, this hustle, this stubbornness and this ingenuity that I've developed and honed over the years into coding? Now bringing it full circle, 60 days of me trying to be a really good developer. In one of my rooms, going back to the individual that came into my room said, 'You know you're doing developer relations stuff. What is that?'
So, he explained it to me, 'This is what you do. You walk people through what they're using, what they're doing, provide resources, create content that supports it, create these organic relationships and build this community out, in a virtual sense or a physical sense. And then someone else sent me a Twitter space that was talking only about developer relations, and t4hat's when I knew, okay. [0:09:52]
Richard Rodger: [0:09:53] You (hesitated?), right?
Lewis Meyers: [0:09:55] Yeah, that's when I knew; this is everything I enjoy. The technical part takes time, but I could potentially leverage my love for people, my aptitude to build communities and to figure things out. And it's led me down this path of speaking to really influential figures. This community I've created on my Twitter, it's not 14,000 subscribers; it's 974 individuals that I most certainly know most of them. So, that to me is a lot more impact, because I know them, and I've had these coffee chats with many heads of developer relations, many developer advocates of senior level, staffing level, and it's been such a beautiful journey so far. [0:10:42]
Richard Rodger: [0:10:45] One of the things I always kick myself over, and it's taken me a long time to get over, is having the courage to reach out to people and say hi. It doesn't matter if they're more senior, and to just talk to them. Something would always hold me back. [0:11:01]
Lewis Meyers: [0:11:07] I have never had that problem. And- [0:11:08]
Richard Rodger: [0:11:10] You're a natural, yeah. [0:11:10]
Lewis Meyers: [0:11:12] I wouldn't say it's natural. Because I come from a – my childhood was built on pleasing people. And so, for five seconds in high school and middle school, I knew very clearly. Once my mom told – or – that – it's a really complicated story, but once – on paper, my mom, when she told me when I was five that, 'You're adopted,' that changed my whole perspective of everything.
My world was turned upside down. I remember it vividly, because my grandmother pulled my elbow out of my socket. You know, as a five-year-old, you're very malleable, like Playdough. And so, they cut a sock in half and I remember vividly, and they put it on my elbow and popped right back in place.
But after that, my whole academic career was confusing, and so, it was built on pleasing people because I didn’t want to lose people; I didn't want people to lose me. So, I had to get good at talking. And I didn’t have a father, so I don't know how, but I innately knew. Let me take the good stuff from everyone I see and leave all the bad stuff, and maybe that'll make me.
So, I've had – for a couple decades actually, I've had issues of who is Lewis. And that's where I came from, and so, that's what's pushed me to develop this ability to speak to people. And I'm no good at speaking; I'm not good at making a lot of friends, but I like to, and so, I try to lean on that. And over the years, I've gotten better at talking slower, being more intentional and talking less at times. [0:12:48]
Richard Rodger: [0:12:50] Yeah, and an important part of dev rel is always listening to the developers that are trying to use your stuff. There's a whole bunch of stuff I'd like to unpack here, so I'm going to take it piece by piece. So, on the coding and the technical side of things, how did you find the bootcamp and where did you feel you ended up in terms of skill level from that? And how do you feel about your skill level now?
Because there's a lot of debate about bootcamps and how – do they help people, all that sort of stuff. And I come at this from the perspective of having worked with a lot of self-taught developers and a lot of – and almost deliberately seeking them out. I don't discredit the university degree; proper computer sciences is definitely fantastic to do.
But I certainly wouldn't engage in feeling that that credential is all that important. 100%, some of the best developers that I have worked with, some of the best developers that I currently work with do not have computer science degrees. So, that's the first thing I'm interested in, is your perspective and experience of the bootcamp and where that has got you to in terms of the technical level. [0:14:21]
Lewis Meyers: [0:14:24] I'll only speak on my experience. I was doing this with my – at the time he was four years old. And you know this very well as well; it's – they just don't stop. No matter what you say. If you're on camera in a meeting or in a – they must be seen; they must be heard. And all while working a very low-paying job.
I – mentally, I internalized at Career Karma role as, this is just for experience, and it is helping. And as a father and a husband, it hurts. It's like, I can't even match my wife's pay. It almost feels like pennies. But having to go through bootcamp and code and lots of staying up till two o'clock in the morning, it's – it felt really good to graduate.
I believe I could have done a lot better if I had more support watching my youngest, but I also had to take him to school and pick him up. With how things are at times with childcare, globally speaking, it's hard to trust anybody with your kids. It's one thing if I look at my son and say, 'Stop that,' I'm kind of authoritative and a little bit stern. But then I also know; I'm self-aware enough to know that okay, that was too much; let me go apologize to him. I do that a lot; I apologize, even to this day.
Because in the middle of this job hunt is quite challenging, and still having to put myself through another bootcamp with self-study. The bootcamp did enough. They're the Tech Academy, and I'm happy about my experience, because I got to meet great people, and I can always lean on them.
Now as far as the curriculum would go, I believe wholeheartedly it could be updated and be a lot better, because my current self-study, it's either because I'm able to – maybe I'm mentally ready for it. And at the time maybe I was rushing, but I was working really hard then too. And that's how I graduated; they don't just give it out to everybody. Yeah, you pay. You naturally would expect, I pay; I graduate. But they've kicked people out before for not doing at least their bare minimum.
And so, their curriculum could be updated and it could be introduced in a better way. Their learning management system is straightforward; it's just in comparison to how I'm self-studying now, I don't think it's as effective as it could be. But then again, I went to the school with my son right behind me, so it's quite distracting at a feet; I've got to watch over them and maintain some type of awareness of where he's at at all times while I'm doing this. [0:17:15]
Richard Rodger: [0:17:16] Oh, yeah, for sure, right? [0:17:17]
Lewis Meyers: [0:17:19] I'm not going to say it was a bad experience, because these are my factors. I know individuals that have done extremely well at that bootcamp, but they were able to leverage family or whatever, but they worked really hard. And so, just from my experience, it got me to where I am today.
I'm – I have the honor of speaking to you, and that's because I went to the bootcamp. And so, overall, great experience. Will I choose it if I had to do it all over again? Would I go back to a bootcamp, not just that one, but any bootcamp? Probably not, no. I'd probably just go through – I'd teach myself, as I'm doing now. [0:17:54]
Richard Rodger: [0:17:56] Yeah, and that's the irony, isn't it? Because the self-teaching is usually more effective. You're talking to a self-taught developer right now. And it's – you often find that the people who have taught themselves, that they are – there might be some crazy gaps. Computational complexity might be something they have never even heard of, but they still get stuff done; they go to a website or whatever, do this integration. Because it's – you don't know that you can't do it. [0:18:36]
Lewis Meyers: [0:18:37] I don't discredit the bootcamp at all, or any bootcamps, because I – when I've coached before and people – I want to go to bootcamp. But I was given two options, because the college was never the option because a lot of these individuals are late 20s, early 30s, 40s, 50s. I've even spoken to people 60s and 70s. A good friend of mine, he's 68; he's a – he's been working to be a developer for a couple years, and he's coming along fairly nicely.
But if you need that accountability, bootcamps are perfect for that. But just like self-learning, you bring the horse to the water, you can't make him drink. So, if you pay the money, don't expect me to hold your hand. You're paying for the resources and the accountability and the networking, and what they provide, which is a structured learning system, so you don't have to create it yourself. But if you're able to hold yourself accountable – I tell everybody the same thing, and this is how I live my life – teach yourself.
The resources are there, even if you don't want to do free code camp; maybe you don't like that LMS, go to Udemy; that's structured, and they always have a sale. There's nine sales a year. How do I know? I looked it up. How many sales do they have? And it's a resource that I have; that's how I built my game, that I learnt it and I experimented. I broke some stuff; I fixed some stuff and changed it moved this bracket over here. And why is this – what's wrong with this token, all this other stuff. What is an event mystery and all this good stuff, and figuring it out contextually. [0:20:07]
Richard Rodger: [0:20:08] Do they encourage much involvement with the open-source community, open-source contributions, that type of stuff? [0:20:15]
Lewis Meyers: [0:20:17] Some bootcamps do. During my time, I didn't hear too much of it, but that's only because – a lot of bootcamps do remote because number one, you get a wider base, and number two, it's a lot more convenient for candidates. It's just, it is; it's a lot more convenient. So, you still get that – the convenience of living your life, because these – mainly, these are grown adults that are trying to have a major – that want a major shift and are willing to work for it.
But to my understanding, not too many – I don't believe too many bootcamp – and I could be wrong. I just – I'm not in that space as much anymore. But I believe – I like General Assembly, they speak very highly of open-source contributions, and they get people warmed up to start doing that. But I would hope that they do, at least the rest of them. [0:21:05]
Richard Rodger: [0:21:07] So, a different question is, tech often prides itself on flat hierarchies, an almost chaotic organization. Whereas some of your professional background is in the military and it's traditionally very hierarchical. How do you feel that compares, or – and I'm not a huge fan of the flat hierarchy thing either. I've always been somewhat – not taken, but I've always felt that in some ways, a clear hierarchy is much easier for people to work in. I don't know. What experiences do you take from the military structures that are useful in tech, do you think? [0:21:57]
Lewis Meyers: [0:22:00] In a lot of ways, martial arts and the military are the same. So, since I started in martial arts, and I've about decade in that – it's very hier – that's a funny word, isn't it? [0:22:10]
Richard Rodger: [0:22:11] I know; it's always – and spelling as well, yeah. [0:22:14]
Lewis Meyers: [0:22:14] It's levels; I'll say there's levels, very clear. [0:22:16]
Richard Rodger: [0:22:18] There you go. Sounds a bit better, levels. [0:22:19]
Lewis Myers: [0:22:20] That you have to go through, and putting the two together. And again, everything comes from how I feel and how I adapted myself through how I've grown into what I like to believe as a grown man, I guess. It comes from – I have had to fit – I've made myself fit in a lot of places, which has caused a lot of heartache at times.
A lot of my life is spent staying up till two or three o'clock in the morning, not playing, but thinking, of who am I, what am I? All these philosophical questions, especially as a teenager, when you're thinking, what am I and how can I change the world. And maybe I shouldn't go down – little things, like maybe I should have played baseball. I don't know.
Relating this to tech – because I've worked at a startup – Career Karma's a startup – and developed this, where I'm – I was their developer advocate and community manager. But still kind of am, but I've stepped away. Very good startup. And it's only on discord, so it's – I can maintain this consistency somewhat. Coming from a very structured hierarchical environment to here.
And the tech space, especially as someone who's looking to secure a second role, if you will, I like the – I would – I'm not going to call it confusion, but I like the constant change, especially in a startup environment. Now I'm not going to say I really like the very bare minimum, the seed level, grass level, grassroots level of a startup, because everyone's wearing every hat at this point. But maybe a little bit higher, a little bit more growth and structure.
But for the most part, I like what I see here in the tech space, and I've been able to adapt fairly well with how things constantly change. This technology's changing and requires us to constantly adapt to it. And since we all want to make money in tech, we have to adapt to the market, which is most certainly ever-changing.
I do like those structured systems, just like marital arts and the military; it's very – it's routine based. But thinking back to it, a lot of the time, I – even overseas, I tried to break that habit in me, but it's hard to break the habit then your whole life – when you're oversees and that's your life. You don't have your family; your family are your battle buddies to your left and your right. That's it. And so, it's hard to break that routine, and so you try your best to create – to break up the monotony, but it's hard.
Whereas in tech, I'm very capable of structuring something and executing and following it to the T, and sometimes I have issues when things are not followed to the T, and – but I'm better at dealing with it. Hence the inconsistencies with tech at times when it comes from the hierarchical structure. I'm able to adapt to that very well and I believe that's a skill that's necessary, being able to adapt in this space. I hope that answers your question. I feel like I went… [0:25:45]
Richard Rodger: [0:25:45] No. Absolutely does, right? It's definitely a – most tech startups are definitely pretty chaotic, and sometimes even after they're successful, they're still chaotic. Even a place like Google, they figured out a money machine with advertising, but that didn't mean that the rest of Google had to be well-organized. Look at Google+, which was just a crazy thing that could have worked; could have defeated Facebook. But they just couldn't get organized.
I often compare this industry to railroads in the 19th century, where everyone was doing everything. There were hundreds of companies; trains were literally blowing up and killing people all over the place because there were no standards. [Inaudible] Time: 0:26:46 software engineers, you can't do that in Canada; I think they arrest you if you do that in Canada. Engineer is a proper title.
But in the rest of the world, it's not engineering at all. My dad was an engineer, so I know what that involves. A lot of us are – a lot of the problem comes from the fact that we – especially if you're really good at coding, you have so much power, in terms of solving problems by coding until 4am or coding all weekend.
You can completely screw up your project management; you can screw up your planning. The client is about to fire you, but hey, I'll just code all weekend. Monday morning at 9am, the website's going to be working again. I'll tell you something; I'm 47. That stops working. That works for the first 15 years, 20 if you're lucky, but if I try to do that now, oh man, I pay for it. And it's not something that you can keep – you can't just pull that rabbit out of the bag. [0:28:09]
Lewis Meyers: [0:28:10] No, you can't. I've tried; I can't. [0:28:13]
Richard Rodger: [0:28:14] My interest has gone to, how do we do things in a sensible way. Which is what attracts me to what you can learn from other types of organizations that have – literally, people die, right? if the army is not organized properly. [0:28:29]
Lewis Meyers: [0:28:31] Yeah.
Richard Rodger: [0:28:32] People die. So, you got to get your logistics right. And oh man, the software engineer could really do with learning how to do logistics. So, the other thing that I said to myself when I saw your engagement stuff that I thought was really interesting was your lived experience of looking for a developer relations job, especially at the moment. You tweet about that a lot, which is really courageous and really interesting as well for a lot of – there's a lot of other people who are going through similar experiences, but they – you're sharing, which is – it's like a build in public thing.
What is that like at the moment? Obviously, this year, things suck, so it's a bit more difficult than it should be. But walk me through applying for developer relations positions. Are they treating them like developer positions where you have to do silly whiteboard coding; you still have to solve silly puzzles? Do you have to do 10 interviews? What's it like out there? [0:29:49]
Lewis Meyers: [0:29:52] I'll answer your question directly, so I don't forget it, and I appreciate this question, because it makes me think very intentionally about my process and am I being efficient enough with each of my movements. Because just like we said, I can't stay up till four o'clock in the morning anymore. I've tried it. And if I do, it's usually not because I'm applying; it's because I'm stuck thinking of, what am I doing wrong and why did I just get rejected?
But to answer your question directly, it's – interviewing for developer relations roles starting out was – I thought I had to be very buttoned up. Because I'm coming from interviewing for developer roles, which are, at least in my opinion, exponentially more competitive. Whether it's front-end, back-end, full stack, it doesn't matter, exponentially more competitive.
Because the – what I've seen and noticed – somebody'll probably DM me and correct me on this, but from what I've seen and noticed, the average developer doesn't want to engage with people, unless it's their own group that they – own community that they've cultivated and that they're a part of. They'd rather not.
And it's not because they don't like people – well, some don't – but it's really just because they've no reason to. It's not necessarily conducive to their growth, so they won't engage on Twitter a lot, or Facebook or whatever platform that they use. So, those areas are just work; it's very singular minded and so very competitive.
Whereas developer relations, it's very people orientated; whether it's Platform as a Service, Software as a Service, APIs, SDKs, automation, it doesn't matter. In some way, shape or form, I've interviewed for all of these type of companies, which is crazy to even say I've interviewed with these companies, because little experience as I have… [0:31:43]
Richard Rodger: [0:31:45] Yes, but people are people; communities are the same. [0:31:47]
Lewis Meyers: [0:31:48] Yes, and that's why I'm here, because I – the art of building a community. I have multiple books on building communities, specifically in developer relations, but it's a challenge. So, how a developer relations role – depending on what company. For example, I interviewed at New Relic, which their head of talent had given a talk, a Ted Talk on Career Karma's platform. And then I had – a couple years down the road, actually just a few months ago – I track all of my roles, so I believe I had an interview with them in November or something.
And they're a very techy company; I got the honor of speaking with the – part of the interview process is speaking with the director of developer relations. And so, in that sense, they wanted someone who was, for this role, very technical. So, there would be a coding assessment, and they do want technical aptitude.
They want community aspect and people type skills, but that specific role was looking for a developer first and a community person second. And you sprinkle in your people skills there, over that. So, what I – and what I've noticed – what companies like New Relic or companies like OneSignal or SmartBear, either want someone that's community first and developer second, or developer first and community second. [0:33:28]
Richard Rodger: [0:33:30] So, there's a split, right? [0:33:31]
Lewis Meyers: [0:33:32] Yes, a very clear split. And they're – some companies are ambiguous with what they want because sometimes they don't know what they want. Because developer relations is very niche; even before you talk about developer relations, you should ask yourself do we need a developer advocate? That's always the first question. And so, the three pillars of developer relations – and it's probably different in other people's eyes, especially of higher level tenure. But it's – from everything that I've learnt and what I do, is code; it's content and it's community.
In those three, and those three pillars, these companies that I've interviewed for have leaned on one or two of them. The expectation's that you'll build the last one or the last – it depends on the need for that role. But there is no coding assessment, at least not for the rest of them. I've been in interviews where I've had five interviews for developer relations: Web 3.0 companies, traditional API companies, automation, Platform as a Service data analytics companies for developer relations. [0:34:41]
Richard Rodger: [0:34:43] Do they know what they're looking for? Are a lot of companies hiring their first dev rel because they know they need it, but they don't know what it is? Or have they got really clear ideas about exactly what the role will be? [0:34:56]
Lewis Meyers: ] 0:34:59] That – through my experience and constantly revising questions and speaking to other heads of developer relations at senior level, developer advocates of multiple companies, and these individuals come from more established companies. What I've felt and noticed is that every company so far I've spoken to, they knew for a fact they needed a developer advocate, and they had somewhat of a very clear picture. Other companies a little bit more shaky of, is it necessary to have a developer advocate.
But the majority of the companies I've interviewed for had a very clear idea of what they wanted, because they had built it off of those three pillars. Either we want someone who's community and then code and content later, or we want somebody that's community, content and then code later, or just one of that variation. So, they've had some very good understanding as to, okay, this is what we're looking for, and this is how this will bring us value. [0:36:04]
Richard Rodger: [0:36:06] I find this really interesting, because there seems to be code, content and community, but there seems to be this wide divergence of what people prioritize. For me personally, community wins, every time, and I've had a previous company where the community stuff was literally the reason it was successful. But it's interesting to me, the people who take different approaches, because what's the point of having a load of code examples and a lot of content and no community? I don't get that. [0:36:43]
Lewis Meyers: [0:36:49] It's – I don't – and this is the second part; this is the second part of this whole experience. It's taught me how to be myself. I've figured out more of myself coming into the tech space than when I was in the military, and I built this habit. And I don't know if it's a defense mechanism or not, but I've built this habit where I identify. And it took me a while to understand this, but I identified with what I was doing, and a good friend of mine, a couple of them actually had said, 'You don't – you are not developer relations. You just want to be a part of it.'
And it took me a minute to understand that, because I associated my love for community and building people and even just doing it pro bono and just wanting to be a part of and contribute to. To really differentiate the two, of like, no, I'm not that. I like to read; I like to code just for the hell of it. I like to do nothing. [0:37:47]
Richard Rodger: [0:37:49] Now, you are touching on a very important mental health issue in the tech space itself. With a lot of the junior engineers that work for me, they've defined their personal identities in terms of the fact that hey code. So, if they get something wrong or they get negative feedback or the PI that is critical, people can get very emotional about it. And I keep on having to say to them, 'You are not your code. There's you and there's the code, and they're not the same thing.'
A correlation there with community because in an earlier iteration of this company before COVID, we were more focused on events, and it's a truism in the events industry that event managers tend to burn out very quickly. There's very few event managers who are older than 35, because it's a super-stressful job and people tend to identify with the events.
If you run a successful conference, it's like an extension of yourself, and if the conference goes wrong, that's an attack on your psyche. So, you're touching on a really important mental health issue, which a lot of people suffer from, which is, there's you and then there's the job and they're not the same thing. Take pride in your work, but don't make it your identity. [0:39:22]
Lewis Meyers: [0:39:25] And as someone that speaks from this side, the other side, of looking for that role and working to get into it, for a long time – and a long time is relative, but for me, two years, it's a long time for me – is I thought I had to be the role. The hundreds of applications I've submitted, now recently started expanding into customer success, customer service, because they seem a lot easier. But they're just as competitive, and it's like, can't catch a break sometimes.
And I thought that I had to be – if we're talking specifically about developer relations with developers, I thought very intentionally for a long time, I have to be the developer, the keyword is immerse. I have to be that. I am JavaScript; I am front-end. I am React. And everything that I did correlated to hat. I would dream about – everyone has done this; I'm sure you've done this – dream about code. You do so much, you dream about it. You have nightmares about it. [0:40:32]
Richard Rodger: [0:40:32] Okay. Anybody who's listening to this, you have the coding dream, right? [0:40:37]
Lewis Meyers: [0:40:39] Yeah.
Richard Rodger: [0:40:41]This guy can code, man; give him a job. [0:40:42]
Lewis Meyers: [0:40:44] It's-
Richard Rodger: [0:40:46] That's the proof; that's all your need. [0:40:47]
Lewis Meyers: [0:40:49] I know. And it used to – I used to take that though as a trophy, I'll get a job if I dream about it. But then not so long ago, I had a wake-up call, where it's like – and many conversations of people 10-15 years in who are like – like you. I had an interview at Okta, and with the head of developer relations. I knew him before I even applied to the role,
And it was through a mutual connection, Caroline Luco, who has a developer relations agency in – over here in Vancouver. And she's – I refer to her as a friend, and she gave me many years in developer relations. She gave me the honor of speaking to her, and it was an amazing experience. But from people like her and Corey Weathers from Alt Zero and Kevin Lewis from Directus and so many other individuals. It's – to hear, just be yourself.
You don't have to be that. You do that; you dream about it, but you – that's not you. And so, I've been very intentional about my interviews, where I'm looking for developer roles because – I track my roles. I have an Excel sheet of over 150 roles. If you include the roles that I didn't put on that Excel sheet, that's over 500 now. It's – and I see the pattern of what is lacking as far as developer and developer relations, and so I'm intentional about the – hence the – I built a game in JavaScript.
I'm intimately ingrained in the code now and I understand it, and I'm leveraging that with my ability to understand this human dynamic of developer relations, which is the understanding and empathy which is necessary, and the importance of build a community. You can build it; takes a while. But if you want to destroy it, at the snap of your fingers, it could be gone. And so, I understand that very intimately. In a martial arts community, it's the same way; in the military, it's the same exact way.
But I take it very seriously in tech, because it's very opinionated. The military and the martial arts, it's very clear, straightforward. In martial arts, this is your kick; this is how you're going to do it. You're going to repeat it multiple times; it's almost like [inaudible] Time 0:43:19. Then you have the military- [0:43:21]
Richard Rodger: [0:43:21] Can't agree on anything. [0:43:22]
Lewis Meyers: [0:43:24] Yeah. In the military it's, this is your job; do that. Quit, too easy. How do I promote? Well, this is your packet. But in tech, exactly to what you said, I don't know. Do that; I don't know. Well, he said do that, and that's the principal, but the principal is also known to be arrogant and won't listen to anybody else.
He won't listen to the other principal; he won't even listen to the E8 on Facebook that had a visit over here just to hang out, who said, 'Maybe you should try that. It'd probably be better.' We get a lot of that in the techs that I've seen, but I've had the honor and privilege of speaking to so many amazing people like yourself, sir. And it's – who are very open to these conversations of how can we better do it? [0:44:01]
Richard Rodger: [0:44:03] I think that's the – that is our challenge as an entire industry. These days, people might say, 'The biggest challenge is ChatGPT' or whatever. But it's still fingering out a way to be professional. And I've been doing this for a long time, and I don't know. It's not getting worse; it's got a little bit better, because of the better tools. But at the human process execution level, I don't know.
We seem to be going in circles; we don't seem to be professionalizing. And I'm – I have some ideas, but I definitely don't think they solve all the problems; they're just from personal experience. So, I don't know; maybe we need an Einstein or somebody like that to come along; figure it all out for us. It would be nice. We need a drill sergeant; that's what we need. [0:45:12]
Lewis Meyers: [0:45:14] To that point, it makes me think of Kelsey Hightower. [0:45:17]
Richard Rodger: [0:45:18] Great guy, yeah. [0:45:19]
Lewis Meyers: [0:45:20] Globally known for his impact. And – but having – he has that accolade, and I was part of his Twitter space and the space was called Distinguished Gentlemen. And that's what he got promoted to a distinguished engineer at Google. And one of the first things he said was, he didn't really want it. He wasn't even thinking about it. And I don't think we need – it would be incredible to have an Einstein, and I've seen posts like this that will build off of what I say.
I think we need someone that intimately loves people and intimately loves and has that servant mentality and loves to bring value and impact. A post that I read off of LinkedIn even before that, talking to Kelsey Hightower, you would never think that he was an E8, because he'll talk to you at your level, whatever technical level that is. But before that, he'll talk to you like a human, because that's what you are first, and you feel that even through a Twitter space.
And then a post that I read on LinkedIn, where this individual said, 'I want to be a senior level developer,' and they're a junior. And so, the manager said, 'This is how you do it.' But he broke it down intimately where the difference between a junior and a senior. And he gave an example of – if I'm saying this correctly – I think I said this to myself – an E8 from Facebook, they make 1.7 – a million a year. But they got to that point – and you quote it, saying that this is the most intelligent individual I've ever met.
But he got to that point and that impact, because they don't judge you off of code. At a certain point, at senior level – you correct me if I'm wrong, but at senior level, they stop judging you off your ability to code. But it's more so your ability to mentor and to drive impact, because you've already proven. If you're a senior, you've already proven you can code and you can understand and all that good stuff.
Now how do you work with people? How do you mentor? How do you lead? And how can you grow and cultivate and bring impact, not only to business but perhaps the further you go, expand at national, international, global level, as far as the tech space. And he said that – this individual from Facebook, this E8, had gone around. He earned this position and – this goes to the service mentality – he had solved all of the teams' hardest problems.
He had served every one of these teams, because it was – he wasn't blocking at anybody, as I read this post. He was serving them. And so, I believe that – and Einstein is nice, but what'd be better is someone that loves people, intimately humble, intentionally humble, and exhibits, at all levels the servants' mentality. And I believe that people that don't like it will weed themselves out and build their own communities, maybe on Mastodon. And people that do like it will usher in, globally speaking, a very true to the T, inclusive tech space for everybody, of all levels. [0:48:26]
Richard Rodger: [0:48:26] That is an amazingly hopeful note to end on. Lewis, we've run out of time. We're just about to start changing the world; we have to say goodbye. This has been amazing and really insightful, and thank you so much for sharing and courageously. I really admire you as a person and the journey that you're going through at the moment, and keep us updated. I'm sure we're going to have a very different conversation this time next year. Thank you so much for talking to me. [0:48:59]
Lewis Meyers: [0:48:59] Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. And to all the listeners, thank you. Have a beautiful day. [0:49:04]
Richard Rodger: [0:49:05] Thank you so much. Take care. Bye-bye. [0:49:06]
Lewis Meyers: [0:49:07] Bye-bye.
Endnote
Richard Rodger: [0:49:08] You can find the transcript of this podcast and any links mentioned on our podcast page at Voxgig.com/podcast. Subscribe for weekly editions, where we talk to the people who make the developer community work. For even more, read our newsletter. You can subscribe at voxgig.com/newsletter, or follow our Twitter @voxgig. Thanks for listening. Catch you next time. [0:49:35]