Interview Intro

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Richard Rodger:  [0:00:00] Welcome to the Voxgig Podcast. We talk to people in the developer community about developer relations, public speaking and community events. For more details, visit voxgig.com/podcast. All right, let's get started. 

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Diversity and inclusion is something that matters. It’s not just something you say you do – you have to know how to make it happen practically. My guest today, Furkan Karayel, will teach you how to do that inside your organization. Let’s get ready for a fascinating and in-depth chat on this topic. [0:00:38] 

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Main Interview

Furkan Karayel

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Richard Rodger:  [0:00:39] Furkan, hello, welcome. It is great to have you back on the Fireside with Voxgig Podcast, talking about all things developer relations and diversity and inclusion and all that sort of stuff. We spoke pre-COVID, so for our audience, let’s rewind right back to the start. Tell us what you do and how you get there, but let’s start with what you do? [0:01:04] 

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Furkan Karayel:  [0:01:05] Thank you so much for this kind introduction and invitation again, Richard; I’m super-delighted to be here for the second time. When did we last – it’s been ages since last we spoke, so for the people who haven’t heard about our first episode, my name is Furkan Karayel. I am an ex-software engineer who turned five years ago to diversity and inclusion industry. And since then, we provide diversity and inclusion solutions that are authentic and action-oriented for organizations. 

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And my story started 15 years ago, almost. I started working in a multinational tech company and I changed the companies during this time as well. And I’ve seen that women were always in minority; that was a big thing for me and very frustrating. And all the other side, women in the leadership and with different ethnic backgrounds in the leadership positions of tech companies, didn’t even exist at all. So, that’s where my story started and I started my own company, and that’s where everything flows later on. [0:02:20] 

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Richard Rodger:  [0:02:21] And the company is Diversein, right? That’s- [0:02:23] 

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Furkan Karayel:  [0:02:23] Yes, diversein.com, yes. 

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Richard Rodger:  [0:02:26] What does the company do? Who – let’s say you have a completely new client. How did they decide to engage with your services and what’s the – walk us through. What do you – what’s the – what do you do in day one or week one and what’s the end result? [0:02:43] 

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Furkan Karayel:  [0:02:45] First of all, they approach to us either from LinkedIn or from our website or from my own personal website, furkankarayel.com as well. And this is the first thing I ask; how did you find out about us? Because this is very interesting. They either heard me speaking at some other event or somebody recommended our services to them. Or maybe they come across to our website on Google that we provide services about diversity and inclusion. Then they want to get to know a little bit more about it. 

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Later on, we talk with the client of getting an understanding what do they do in general in the market, which sector and how many people they are working with them and where they are based. And do they have diversity and what do – how do they define diversity within their terms, and where they would like to go next. This is very important for us to get an understanding what they are trying to achieve. And if they have a strategy in place, where does our trainings and our solutions would fit into their model. 

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On the other side, we also get an understanding of what is the company values, because some companies are very new companies; maybe they don’t have value structures or values set yet. On the other side, larger companies mostly have worked towards their company cultures already, and they already have a large number of employees. 

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And they are trying to – first of all, the first question is, “Furkan, we would like to get our team more inclusive.” That is one of the most asked questions to me. They said, “We have a very diverse team in terms of culture, in terms of ethnicity, way of thinking and so on. But we would like to focus on inclusion now.” The second thing I’m hearing is, “Furkan, we believe our company is doing great in terms of diversity and inclusion. But we would like to work with our leaders, how they can enhance their understanding of inclusion and also become role models in this.” 

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And third, we are also getting:  “How can we start from diversity and inclusion from the beginning. We are just at the very beginning of the journey, yes. We have a little bit of diversity in many different ways, but we’d like to do – what are the focus areas for us should be for us on diversity and inclusion, or what is the first step and priority?” These are normally the questions that I’m getting. 

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Based on this, we either work with – on trainings or depends on the programs they have. It could be a part of a keynote speech we delivered or interactive sessions with their leaders to get a better understanding of them, what do they normally do on a day-to-day basis and activities and how they can embed inclusion onto their activities. Because it changes; it depends on – everyday life is – if I go to work physically, if I am working at home. There are so many elements to our everyday life and routine. 

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And we are giving practical examples on inclusion, in a practical way, and how can they expand this within their teams and also become role models in this space. And later on, what it looks like, we either in person or virtually, we deliver a workshop for them. Or sometimes it’s in a form of a program; we design a program for them, for inclusive leadership program for example. 

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And we have one on one conversations with leaders or with the boardroom, or with the employees, to get a better understanding what is the ideal scenario for inclusion, what they would like to see. And the practical steps that they can all embed maybe one little step every day, that will hopefully make a change throughout the years. [0:07:25] 

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Richard Rodger:  [0:07:26] I have one question, which I’m a little bit embarrassed to ask, but maybe you’ve heard it before. I’ve in my head my own mental model of diversity and inclusion and it’s the same thing, but it’s two different words. And you’ve just mentioned – you highlighted – the first part of what you were saying there – that companies are saying, “We feel we’ve got diversity, but we haven’t addressed inclusion.” So, what is the difference? [0:07:56] 

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Furkan Karayel:  [0:07:59] I define diversity and inclusion like this, and there’s so many definitions out there, which is perfect. And the most resonating one with you is the best for you. That’s why it should – the definition should come from you. And I have a very simple answer. Diversity is you because you are unique; inclusion is accepting you becomes you matter. And in other words, if we unpack it, diversity is building a balanced harmony from our differences and inclusion is seeing everyone as unique and valued piece of these differences. [0:08:39] 

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Richard Rodger:  [0:08:42] It’s not so much – you can have diversity; you can have lots of different people from lots of different places in your company, but they might be unhappy because they’re not feeling included. It’s not just enough to have the numbers; you’ve got to have the practice as well. [0:08:59] 

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Furkan Karayel:  [0:09:00] It’s not about – all about the numbers. And it’s all about are we being accepted; are we being psychologically safe in the space? Can we become the person who we are outside of work in this space? My voice is being counted here and valued as much as the other person who is sitting next to me. And then can I be productive in this space? Because when these things are not happening, we can’t be as productive as our maximum level. 

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And then in today’s world, the employee engagement is one of the biggest issues, and it’s around 13. And during the pandemic it has changed, but between 13-15% overall employee engagement rate within the organizations. And look how big gap it is and how little impacts can have huge results in the workplace in terms of productivity. This all feeds into the bottom line. It makes better money; it makes better revenue for the organization. It’s a no-brainer not to invest into getting an understanding what make people to be accepted in this. [0:10:20] 

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Richard Rodger:  [0:10:20] Yeah, it’s a big – it has a big impact. I wonder – the companies that are coming to you probably have some understanding that they have challenges or they need to get better, but it’s very easy not to know that you have a problem. I’ve worked with engineers – let’s say junior engineers over the years. And I’ve done this many times, so I apologize to everybody that I’ve done this to. 

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Where I thought I was being encouraging and giving good feedback and helping somebody to grow. But it turns out they were really unhappy and they thought I wasn’t giving them the respect. Now partly that’s probably a management failure on my part or failure to spend enough time with them or something like that. But the essence of what I’m asking here is, I thought I was doing okay. And do you find that there are organizations that think they’re inclusive, but they’re just on step one. [0:11:27] 

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Furkan Karayel:  [0:11:29] For the ones that approached me, they want to do something better; that’s why they approached me anyway. But there’s so many organizations out there who they think that that’s not their priority, or they think that they’re doing a good job; they’re on the right path. And it’s either a complete journey already for them; that is a very common case. Can I ask you a follow-up question, Richard? [0:11:53] 

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Richard Rodger:  [0:11:53] Yeah, sure. 

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Furkan Karayel:  [0:11:54] How did you find out the overall results, because that is an interesting one? [0:11:59] 

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Richard Rodger:  [0:12:01] In some cases, very badly, because the person left. And you know the old saying, where they say people don’t leave organizations; they leave managers. In other cases, maybe there were conversations or maybe the person moved to a different part of the organization. But the issue is, once you get to that stage, where someone has felt excluded, it’s almost impossible to fix, because the trust structure is gone. It doesn’t matter, even if you recognize it, even if you try to put things in place, it’s almost impossible to repair, and that relationship is broken. [0:12:49] 

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Furkan Karayel:  [0:12:50] It is. Thanks for openly sharing this, Richard, because these are the moments that – if you maybe realized it a little bit earlier, or anybody, that the story could have a different ending. That’s why what we are suggesting everyone to have that a little bit – a mechanism that will let people to give regular feedbacks and genuine feedback. Because once people give feedbacks, that means that they would like it to be resolved. 

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It’s not like something that I don’t say anything that means that I’m close to any interaction from you, that – and I’m ready to leave as soon as I can. Feedback is positive or negative, so it is a good thing eventually. And it’s not about the people; it’s about the systems with – that we set for people to be able to see that open vulnerability door, I call it; vulnerability door opens so that they can go through it. One example to this. Last year I was in Tube in London and I’ve seen a message was very clearly saying that “We won’t tolerate hate crime.” So, the message is a very clear one. [0:14:12] 

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Richard Rodger:  [0:14:12] I know the – I think I saw the one, yeah. [0:14:13]

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Furkan Karayel:  [0:14:14] We have very similar ones in Dublin here now as well. And then what I liked about it is, they don’t only leave it there, but they also have a text number. Anybody who feels they’ve been treated or violating this statement can easily text the number. Same thing applies to us as well in terms of teams for individuals for organizations as well. 

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Do we have a clear statement, is the first thing I’m asking. And the second thing is, if we do, do we have a communication channel or email or text message or phone that people can anonymously bring up things, maybe something very simple that bothers people. But maybe it is something that occasionally needs to be changed. And for most cases, if we are aware of these things, we are more likely to get change. 

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But it’s all about having that door open, so that these things comes in easily, and then doesn’t matter where the comment is coming from, but we see that that’s an issue. That’s not a problem for me; I can easily change that thing. My book is including a lot of stories like this, that if a communication tool was there- [0:15:42] 

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Richard Rodger:  [0:15:43] It would have helped. 

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Furkan Karayel:  [0:15:43] So many things could have changed. 

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Richard Rodger:  [0:15:44] We don’t have the time on a short podcast to get into a whole lot of the practical stuff, but you have written a book, Inclusive Intelligence. [0:15:52] 

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Furkan Karayel:  [0:15:52] Since last time. 

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Richard Rodger:  [0:15:53] Since we last spoke. I have to – because I’ve written one or two as well; it was awful, painful, horrible experience. How did you find writing? [0:16:02] 

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Furkan Karayel:  [0:16:02] It’s not easy. 

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Richard Rodger:  [0:16:03] How did you find writing? 

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Furkan Karayel:  [0:16:05] The writing piece, I’m going to say it’s a difficult job, if you write it on laptop. For me, writing on paper was an easier one, because I didn’t let my brain to autocorrect each time, whatever the sentence I’m writing. So, there was- [0:16:26] 

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Richard Rodger:  [0:16:26] Interesting, okay, you have to write it, go. 

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Furkan Karayel:  [0:16:28] I had to just write it. 

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Furkan Karayel:  [0:16:30] Do you have good handwriting though, Furkan. 

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Furkan Karayel:  [0:16:34] If you can judge from here-

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Richard Rodger:  [0:16:36] It’s better than mine. 

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Furkan Karayel:  [0:16:36] I think kind of okay. 

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Richard Rodger:  [0:16:37] It’s better than mine; it’s better than mine. 

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Furkan Karayel:  [0:16:39] Kind of okay. And once I finished my manuscript, it took me one and a half years to find a publisher. It was even harder than writing it. [0:16:52] 

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Richard Rodger:  [0:16:53] Wow, yeah, that’s – because – this is a podcast about developer relations. That’s a little bit annoying, because diversity and inclusion is an important value in doing developer relations properly. The developer advocate in a company are representatives of the company and representatives of the economy’s values. 

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Again, this is interesting, because I’m on the inside. We’re looking at ourselves as developer relations people and we think we’re doing okay. I don’t know how well we’re actually doing; I feel it’s better than most of the rest of tech. But at least a recognition of the values are there. Part of the reason I invited you on to talk again was the book, because there are a lot of books for developer advocates about marketing to developers, measuring developer relations activity, giving conference talks. 

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The last time you were on, we spoke about public speaking as well, techniques for doing it well. But I think that the diversity and inclusion aspect is another important tool, effectively, for developer advocates to have and to understand, because they can effect a lot of change. And I – are there other, similar books? I don’t know of any. Perhaps I haven’t gone and- [0:18:36] 

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Furkan Karayel:  [0:18:36] Thanks for saying this. 

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Richard Rodger:  [0:18:37] Perhaps I haven’t gone – perhaps I haven’t looked very hard, but specifically around our industry and based – written by a former coder, which in a way gives it – it shouldn’t maybe, but it does give it legitimacy. [0:18:49] 

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Furkan Karayel:  [0:18:51] There are so many books that previous, before I write it, I wanted to read what else is there, because if I see maybe 70 or 80% of my message was included in a book, I wasn’t bothered writing any book. Because to me, that is important that there’s a resource there. There are so many books about diversity and inclusion, and especially women in tech could turn to diversity and inclusion world as well. 

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But I had a different story to tell and on the other side, my research on working with global leaders who demonstrated inclusive leadership skills. And their stories needed to be captured in this format, I believe, so that was the motivation for me. There’s so many new ones; every day I see a new book. One coming up as well – I can’t remember the name of the book – was just published today on a post, but it is going to be available early next year. Maybe I shouldn’t mention, because competition. [0:20:09] 

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Richard Rodger:  [0:20:09] You know what they say about startups. If you have competition, it’s good; it means there’s demand. [0:20:12] 

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Furkan Karayel:  [0:20:13] I don’t see it as in competition; it all adds a different perspective. That’s why they are very strong. The more you read, the more you collaborate with each other, because you have the same mission for inclusion. If somebody works in inclusion, they make my job easier for me when I come next, for example; this is how I see it. 

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And I am absolutely delighted to work with so many different diversity experts in this field. When you are providing solutions, I’m not alone. I have a team of experts in this field, that according to the project, we partner with one or two of them to deliver, because collective voice is even stronger than one voice. [0:21:01] 

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Richard Rodger:  [0:21:05] Maybe there isn’t enough time yet to tell, but do you feel that the companies that you’ve worked with, or companies that have prioritized these issues have better profits? Let’s get down – this is about business ultimately, right? [0:21:22] 

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Furkan Karayel:  [0:21:23] Yes. 

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Richard Rodger:  [0:21:24] Of course, one should do it because it is a good thing in and of itself for humanity, but from a business perspective, you have to ask these other questions. Does it lead to better profit margins? [0:21:38] 

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Furkan Karayel:  [0:21:39] Yes. Research shows that it does. And our company is not focusing on measuring the financial impact of it, to be honest. But if one person who is not happy in the workplace that feels not accepted and included, are they – how long are they going to stay in there? They’re not going to stay there; their retention rate will be over. 

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And to replace one talent in tech depends on their seniority level. It takes about $50,000 to replace one talent. Imagine if one or two people are leaving because of the same reason, how big impact just to even replace one talent, and especially if those talents’ seniority and their impact to the team is big. That gives me a very clear message that the longer people stay in that team, the organization, the better revenue they are making. [0:22:45] 

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Richard Rodger:  [0:22:47] We – I haven’t done any proper studies, but we work with a lot of different companies at every level, from startups to medium-sized companies to large multinationals. And I have a few clients in particular where the people working there have been there for five, six, seven, 10 years. 

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And when you interact with those companies, you can definitely pick up that the people have a feeling of safety in their work, psychological safety, which you mentioned earlier. You don’t stay in a company for 10 years if you’re unhappy – people leave. And those companies were giving me business and they were doing okay, so that’s my anecdata for you. But if somebody’s worked in a company for 10 years, they have so much institutional knowledge. They’re replacing somebody who has worked somewhere for 10 years. That’s not $50,000, that’s 500,000. [0:24:00] 

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Furkan Karayel:  [0:24:00] More than that. And let’s differentiate between staying in an organization for 10 years in two scenarios, because to me it’s important, because it doesn’t always give me – this is a good place to work. One, for example, working in small towns, let’s say, outside of Dublin. Maybe there is not much employers within their skillset, so they end up staying in that, and maybe they found that they’ve bought their house, the school – their kids are going to school and everything. For some people, it’s convenient as well. [0:24:39] 

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Richard Rodger:  [0:24:39] They have to. 

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Furkan Karayel:  [0:24:39] They don’t – they had to. But the number of people – what are the percentage of those people who stay there longer? And then are they always in the same role or – because if you stay in the same comfort zone too much, it gets boring and it’s not productive as well. It’s a bout that 1% of people who stay there long is the metric. [0:25:05] 

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Richard Rodger:  [0:25:08] The – that is an aspect. The company I’m thinking of in particular is based in a large North American city, so people stay there by choice, which is a good reflection on that company. You mentioned earlier, as part of your engagement, you talk to leadership. Here’s an interesting question, because I’ve seen this happen in other contexts, where the leadership hire in somebody external with particular domain expertise. And they’re like, “Go fix my problem. I don’t want to know about it. Here’s the money. Go fix the problem.” 

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But you mentioned leadership training as well, which I would identify as being the most important part of your job, is to get the leadership on board with all of these issues. Because you can put up all of the posters and notices you like, but if it’s not practiced, it doesn’t help it as well. Do you want to – obviously, you can’t talk about any specifics, but do you want to talk about some of your experiences trying to get business leaders from A to B and the challenges and what approaches – the usefulness of this question is for people inside organizations to maybe gently guide their leadership in the right way. [0:26:27] 

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Furkan Karayel:  [0:26:29] Sure. First of all, if we work with a large organization – sometimes we didn’t – their one department, let’s say marketing department that we are working on. That person doesn’t necessarily have approach to us, so maybe they don’t believe in the benefits of diversity and inclusion. [0:26:53] 

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Richard Rodger:  [0:26:54] Big challenge, yes. 

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Furkan Karayel:  [0:26:54] It’s big challenge. And then for them to open up in the conversation is something really – you need to build that trust within them. and these things are happening all the time, because even the organization says that, “We are very diverse, very inclusive. We are doing every single thing and we are investing a lot of money into it.” But maybe they have 30% of their managers who doesn’t give any value into it. 

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And in these type of scenarios, my conversation in the keywords, doesn’t include a lot of diversity and inclusion, to be honest. What I’m talking about is, what are their goals at the end of, for example, month or weekly – what are their targets? If I know their targets that they say they want to make this amount of leads by the end of the month. Things like this. The key metrics ones, I learn about it. I can easily translate it to – investing into this, this, this doesn’t necessarily the keywords have to be inclusion and diversity. Would have a huge impact on – either in your research, in your sales results or making the leads or having somebody who speaks the same language in your team, who delivers to that country. And giving examples- [0:28:35] 

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Richard Rodger:  [0:28:35] Got it. Yeah, it’s a very practical approach, right? You’re aligning it with that specific organization and their own context. [0:28:39] 

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Furkan Karayel:  [0:28:39] Yes. And then if it is- [0:28:41] 

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Richard Rodger:  [0:28:41] Very clever. 

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Furkan Karayel:  [0:28:43] If it is – at the end of the day, if they want to be successful in that role, obviously, their goal is to make that lead number of sales and everything translating into their language. And I give them a little bit of examples and then – and I say, “Do you think, would this work? Would this work to give it a try?” 

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And then taking their reflections, because sometimes they have things that are upholding int hem as well that they don’t want to open up. And maybe that is the point they say, “You know what?” And then something comes up as a trigger. Maybe they are biased. And then we talk about it a little bit more. Why do you think that is? 

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Rather than asking closed-ended questions, we always ask open-ended questions to them to get an understanding the underlying blockage on their mindset of why they are thinking this way. Because there must be a reasonable way as well, that we would like to see, if this is a blockage for one person, maybe it’s a blockage for another person as well. But linking it to their purpose, targets, whatever the numbers, either sales leads and everything, makes a huge impact to change the overall perspective? [0:30:11] 

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Richard Rodger:  [0:30:12] Setting up that context where you are connecting what you do for the outcomes is one of the bigger challenges for developer relations as well. [0:30:21] 

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Furkan Karayel:  [0:30:23] Really? 

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Richard Rodger:  [0:30:24] Do you talk about that in your book? 

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Furkan Karayel:  [0:30:29] I do, yes.  And developer advocates here, whoever listening, and you can be the person who impacts the other people as an inclusive leader as well. And never underestimate your influence in the organization. Because sometimes we don’t know the power of our stories, how impactful our leadership – one decision, one common goal – can have in the organization in the team; doesn’t matter. 

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Because I used to think, Richard, that leadership – and especially if you are new in the organization, it’s nothing to do with you. Because you don’t manage people yet; you don’t maybe work in large organizations yet. But it is making an impact and change a perspective, pursuing a common goal and influencing other people to join you on this journey. That is the definition of leadership by Bill George; I absolutely love it.  

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And in his book, Authentic Leadership, is something I highly recommend anybody to read as well. It’s all about it. If you want to make – see one change, bring people together through that change with you. That you authentically become the leader of that change. And let’s be that leader; let’s be that inclusive leader we want to see today. [0:31:56] 

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Richard Rodger:  [0:31:57] That’s an incredibly inspiring vison, which is a good place to draw things to a conclusion, since we’ve pretty much run out of time. And it’s – as a general rule, be the change you want to see. But it’s also part of the developer advocate job as well, is literally to make change happen. 

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So, it’s even more of an attribute that you need to exercise when you’re doing developer relations. I don’t often say go out and buy stuff, but for a lot of developer advocates, your book is going to offer a useful perspective on an aspect of their job that is a little bit under – there’s not enough attention paid to it. There’s an awareness, but the practice and being mindful of it and actually making it happen, and understanding the power of your role when you get up on stage and you are a public advocate within the company – you can make a lot of change. Inclusive intelligence, right? [0:33:11] 

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Furkan Karayel:  [0:33:12] Inclusive intelligence, yes. And anybody who would like to connect with me on LinkedIn as well, I’m so happy to connect and see your journey in this as well; once we’re connected, it’s easy to watch. And thank you so much for this kind invitation, Richard, again, and lovely podcast. [0:33:31] 

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Richard Rodger:  [0:33:33] Thank you very much, Furkan. It is – it was great to have you on, and I am going to go. I should have done it before, and do my research. But I am now going to go and get your book and read it, so I know myself what I’m talking about. [0:33:48] 

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Furkan Karayel:  [0:33:49] Fantastic. 

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Richard Rodger:  [0:33:50] Thank you so much. Take care, bye-bye. [0:33:52] 

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Furkan Karayel:  [0:33:52] Thank you, bye-bye. 

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Endnote

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Richard Rodger:  [0:33:54] You can find the transcript of this podcast and any links mentioned on our podcast page at Voxgig.com/podcast. Subscribe for weekly editions, where we talk to the people who make the developer community work. For even more, read our newsletter. You can subscribe at voxgig.com/newsletter, or follow our Twitter @voxgig. Thanks for listening. Catch you next time. [Time: 0.34.23]

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