As virtual experience improves year by year, we reflect on the Fireside Chat with Courtney we had two years ago where she talks about her transition from live events to virtual events and how to make this happen. She has plenty of experience in the technology and marketing behind successful events. She encourages event organisers to leave the comfort zone of Zoom, and explore platforms that allow them to offer people an authentic live and interactive experience online. Courtney Stanley is all over social media. You'll find her on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, on her website, and on the #OUTSPOKEN Facebook group.
Learn more about Courtney on her LinkedIn and her website.
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Interview Intro
Richard Rodger: [0:00:00] Welcome to the Voxgig Podcast. We talk to people in the developer community about developer relations, public speaking and community events. For more details, visit voxgig.com/podcast. All right, let's get started.
Can you make it as a virtual MC? Today's podcast, we find out. I chat to Courtney Stanley, who has transitioned from being an MC in live events to being a super successful MC for virtual events. Let's hear what Courtney has to say about this new, wonderful world, the virtual experience.
Main Interview
Courtney Stanley
Richard Rodger: [0:00:41] Courtney, welcome to the Fireside with Fireside with Voxgig Podcast. It is great to have you here today. Morning for you and evening for me. [0:00:48]
Courtney Stanley: [0:00:49] Hi, Richard. Thanks so much for having me on. This is super exciting, and I can't wait to dig in. [0:00:53]
Richard Rodger: [0:00:54] Awesome. Let's start a little bit with how you got into speaking. You started off in the meetings industry and I know you got into speaking a little bit later. But I often ask people did they start out as a teenager? Were you into acting? Or how did you get – what's your first memory of getting onto a stage? [0:01:15]
Courtney Stanley: [0:01:17] Yeah, that's really funny. So, I – it's a great question, Richard. So, I actually grew up as a pastor's daughter and I was like that, overachiever in the church environment. So, the first experience I ever had on a stage was through the church's drama club, and I loved it. I thought it was my calling; I thought it was super fun.
And then when I left that bubble of a community and started trying out for community plays and stuff like that, I never got picked. So, I would say my auditions didn’t go so well. I don't know that I'm a great auditioner, but my acting career stopped the moment that I stepped outside of our little Presbyterian church in a very small town in Michigan.
So, I don't know that I ever had big dreams of taking the stage as an actor at that time. But – so, I just – a little bit of background about my professional history. So, I come from the events, meetings, hospitality, travel and tourism industry, so I studied international tourism and business hospitality and leadership studies, as well as event management in university. And that's when I actually was even really introduced to this field of work and was just so blown away.
And actually, ironically, this – you'll, I think, find this humorous, Richard. I fell in love with the field of tourism and events because I was having a conversation with a college friend who was studying event management and tourism. And she was telling me that she was on her way to do an internship in Ireland. [0:03:04]
Richard Rodger: [0:03:06] Excellent.
Courtney Stanley: Right, at a castle, and she was going to be planning events. And I was like, "I'm sorry. What did you say? You're going to be spending your time as a professional, a young professional, in a castle in one of the most beautiful countries in the world? Why am I not doing that?" So, that's where I first even heard about this being a field that I could go into.
And I was really drawn to the events sector specifically, so I started out as a meeting planner, working for a third-party events agency, working with corporate and association clients, and transitioned over to the event technology side. I realized that I don't care enough about all of the details to be a really effective planner, so I wanted to step into more of the marketing side of things, the PR side of things. And that's when I went into the sector of event technology instead. [0:04:01]
Richard Rodger: [0:04:03] Okay, so let's run through this planner role a little bit; we'll get back to the speaking in a sec. Because it's an often-overlooked role. What I've noticed from people who do it is, people who are really good at running events and being an event planner can keep 100 things in their head at the same time and react in real time. It's an amazing skill, super hard job. When you say you were a meeting planner, what is that? [0:04:31]
Courtney Stanley: [0:04:34] It is a type A person's dream. So, if you're somebody who is super organized and you like to be in charge and delegate and plan ahead, this is the perfect role for you. So, the role of a meeting planner – or it could also be referred to as a conference organizer, an event planner – this person is responsible for the coming together of different types of people in a professional space.
For me, this meant that I was working with different corporations, so let's say a company that created sporting equipment. And our job was to create the best of the best possible reunion for all of their sales employees for the year, to plan from start to finish what the day would look like for these people, in terms of providing them with education about whatever it was they needed to learn about.
So, it could be new products; it could be the changes that were happening in the field. It was also our responsibility to create fun, so to create experiences where they were able to have engaging conversations and laugh and make memories. And those are the key components of creating any sort of effective gathering. So, it's education; it's networking, and then of course, it's business exchange.
Oftentimes, people confuse the role of maybe a special events planner who maybe focuses on weddings and parties with the role of a meeting planner or a conference organizer, who focuses more on the strategic objectives of a business and how you can accomplish those strategic objectives or vision in the setting of a face to face meeting or event experience. [0:06:22]
Richard Rodger: [0:06:23] That is a super stressful job, and that's – it seems – it strikes me – it seems to be something that people do for maybe 10 or 15 years max. [0:06:31]
Courtney Stanley: [0:06:32] Yeah, it's interesting, because burnout is a real thing for this type of profession. If you look at the Forbes list of top 10 most stressful jobs, the title or position of event coordinator or manager winds up on this list almost every year. Because your responsibility is to ensure that as many people as possible, especially stakeholders, are having an exceptional time and some sort of experience from the moment that they wake up to the moment that they go to sleep. So, your responsibility is really to be a strategic planner and also troubleshooter if things go wrong. And at the end of the day, if things do go wrong while the event is happening, it's going to be your fault. So- [0:07:18]
Richard Rodger: [0:07:19] And you control nothing; you control nothing. [0:07:21]
Courtney Stanley: [0:07:21] Exactly. So, there's Murphy's Law of what can go wrong, will go wrong, and then even more than that. So, being a meeting professional, you truly have to always have a plan A, B, C, D. And stress is definitely part of the job. I think you're right, Richard, when you say that people might do this for 10 or 15 years and then get exhausted. Or they hire people under them to help carry some of that stress that they have on their shoulders, and then they have more of that decision maker instead of the person executing on the ground. [0:07:53]
Richard Rodger: [0:07:55] What can speakers do to make the life of a meeting planner easier? [0:08:00]
Courtney Stanley: [0:08:02] Honestly, just relax. Being easy to work with as a speaker. That's what I do now full time is, I'm a keynote speaker. I run and facilitate workshops; I'm also an event MC. As a speaker, it's so easy to just – as a partner, a strategic partner in this person's conference, to provide them with the assurance that you are – you're responsible; you're going to get the job done. You're on board with whatever their objectives are.
So, if they want something that's going to be really impactful and inspiring for the audience, that you understand that it's your job to take that objective and bring it to life on stage. It's also – it's so important to understand the pain points of a meeting professional. If their ultimate goal is to get the event surveys back after the conference ends, their ultimate goal is for good feedback.
Because what they do is, they report the data, the feedback from the audience to their stakeholders. Was this a valuable experience? Did it accomplish our objectives? And one of those objectives of questions on that survey is going to be, would you attend this again? Was the education worthwhile? Did it align with our objectives? So, as a speaker, it's important for you to have those conversations to understand how you can actually make sure that they do meet the needs of the audience and get those good results. [0:09:33]
Richard Rodger: [0:09:35] Yeah. And you mentioned the MC role as well, which you've moved into. We talk to a lot of speakers and we talk a lot about how to be a good speaker and prepare and stage presence and all that good stuff, and dealing with audiences. And it's a whole new world now that everything's gone virtual. But meeting planners must be very dependent on good MC, especially if there's a big agenda and loads of speakers and lots of stuff happening. [0:10:05]
Courtney Stanley: [0:10:06] Yes. It's interesting, Richard, because the role of the MC has changed drastically from an in-person event to a virtual event experience. If you were ask somebody what is the role of an event MC just in general, most people would say, "Well, they're the hype person. They're the person that gets the audience excited. They crack some jokes here and there. They maybe introduce speakers." But they're there as the in-between; they're there to provide entertainment and to provide some sort of filler in between speakers. Now when we talk about a virtual experience, oh my gosh, the role of an event MC is just totally different. [0:10:51]
Richard Rodger: [0:10:51] It must be hard, oh my goodness. Virtual MC. I've done MC and it's super tough. I can't even imagine virtual. [0:10:58]
Courtney Stanley: [0:11:00] It's a different world, yes; it's a totally different world. Because not only are you in front of a camera, you're in front of an audience, which is the same as if you were onstage at an in-person event. But the real difference is that you are also operating behind the scenes. So, at least 50% of your role is keeping an eye on the conversation that's happening behind the scenes.
So, what are the organizers asking of you. What are they needing? What are they talking about? Have the speakers logged onto the platform? Are they having technical issues? So, even though there are event professionals that are behind the scenes helping to troubleshoot those issues, you're also aware of it as the MC, so you're seeing these messages come up behind closed doors.
And you have to – if things are running behind, you have to make sure that you're stretching things and being flexible in front of the audience, to the point where they don't actually know that anything is changing behind the scenes. So, it's almost like playing two roles. It's like you are the production manager behind the stage making sure everything is on time and everything is going well.
But you're also still that hype person, and going a step further, engagement is totally different in a virtual world. So, if you're doing – playing the role of an MC at an in-person event, you have the opportunity to read social cues, from the event staff that you're introducing, also from the audience. [0:12:27]
Richard Rodger: [0:12:27] Which is super useful, right? [0:12:27]
Courtney Stanley: [0:12:28] Totally. A lot of communication and feedback that you get from an audience when you're onstage comes directly from the people. So, you don't have someone necessarily in your ear being like, "It seems like they're getting a little sleepy." You look at the audience and you feel it and you adjust and move forward. That way they're having a good experience and they're finding value in whatever you're saying.
However, the big difference in virtual is that you can't see the audience. So, as – whether you're a speaker or you're an MC, you have to be super aware of what's happening on the platform. So, are people using the chat box? Are they asking questions? You can see the number of attendees, so is it going up? Is it staying the same? Is it dropping? It's important to keep an eye on that stuff, because you still have to be able to pivot in that moment and change whatever you're doing so that it continues to be a good experience for the audience. [0:13:21]
Richard Rodger: [0:13:22] Yeah. It just strikes me as something that's so difficult. Do you think – well, first of all, do you use humor? Because that's a tough one to get right. [0:13:32]
Courtney Stanley: [0:13:34] Yes. I do use humor. I feel like I stick to what I'm comfortable with in terms of my personality, but I definitely stay appropriate too. Especially in today's day and age and not being able to read those social cues in person, you do have to tread lightly in certain topics, so things like politics. I'm not going to make jokes about politics, especially if it's an international conference. [0:14:00]
Richard Rodger: [0:13:59] Don't go there.
Courtney Stanley: [0:14:00] Right. So, the things that you wouldn't talk about on a first date, like politics, religion, all of those things. Yeah, I would say rule of thumb is apply those same- [0:14:11]
Richard Rodger: [0:14:11] We have it-
Courtney Stanley: [0:14:11] -guidelines.
Richard Rodger: [0:14:12] We have it so much easier here in Ireland. And I don't know what it is, whether it's a cultural difference between the US and Europe maybe. But there's a real – we don't discuss politics at all really; only in very specific situations would you ever mention politics in any way, shape or form. [0:14:34]
Courtney Stanley: [0:14:35] I actually envy you a little bit, to be honest. [0:14:37]
Richard Rodger: [0:14:37] Which makes it – yeah. It makes a lot – I mean, that's what I find when I visited the States. If I ever will again, oh my goodness, it's just awful. But people are so willing to talk about politics. And I don't know is that a good reflection on American democracy or what, but it does make things tough. Especially when you're not a citizen.
You're like, "I have opinions, but I can't vote. Doesn't really matter." And then you – and now with virtual, you're doing this in front of international audiences. Because another thing I've noticed – I'm sure you have as well – is that the audiences are much more international now, because they can be. [0:15:21]
Courtney Stanley: [0:15:22] Yes. Yeah. Which I think is a huge silver lining of the virtual experience. So, I know it's been a very challenging transition for a lot of meeting professionals and event planners, to understand the technology side of transitioning to virtual. It's overwhelming, to be totally honest. There are a lot of platforms out there offering a lot of the same, and/or different things.
Definitely, it can be difficult switching over to virtual for sure. But I think that what has been a huge benefit is the fact that you reach so many more people when you're virtual. There are no barriers of getting on a plane; being able to afford to travel; having the time to include travel in your business, trip that you have to attend a conference or something like that.
So, I do think that there is a huge benefit to expanding your audience, because not only are you attracting more interest, more customers, you're reaching more attendees. But you're also able to generate more diverse conversations and garner greater, more different ideas from people that maybe would never have been involved or in that room in the first place, had it been in person. [0:16:40]
Richard Rodger: [0:16:41] I think we're starting to see that as one of the hidden benefits. When all this stuff hit, things started to go crazy, then the first wave of virtual events happened, and they were pretty bad. I think we – my experience of them anyway – I don't know. It was – people were still figuring out the tech, that type of stuff. They're starting to get better now, but definitely, this expanded audience thing is fabulous. [0:17:10]
Courtney Stanley: [0:17:11] I think so too, and I agree, Richard. I think that the virtual event experience has changed and I think that it has improved. One of the things that stands out to me as something that was a little bit messy and disorganized in the beginning, even looking back at the month of May, when everybody and their mother was trying to go virtual and it was a series of back-to-back virtual events that you could sign up for. Which, hats off, that's great that people were taking the initiative and putting out content quickly, because they wanted people to have access to that education and that experience.
But one of the messier things that I noticed, especially for one conference that I spoke at, was, oh my gosh! It was so confusing as a speaker knowing what on earth I was supposed to be clicking. And that sounds so simple, but there were hour-long introductions of how to use the technology as a speaker. But I felt like the most basic questions of where do I go to log in and once I'm logged in, what do I click? That's all I need to know. [0:18:18]
Richard Rodger: [0:18:18] Yes. This is a big topic. And because you have a background in tech, you have a super interesting perspective, because you've done it all. You've done the meeting planning in person; you have a perspective on meeting planning in virtual, you have experience in tech. And now you do the MC, which is almost production of the event. I remember about two years ago giving a virtual presentation, and nobody told me that my slides were not being shared. [0:18:50]
Courtney Stanley: [0:18:51] No, Richard! [0:18:53]
Richard Rodger: [0:18:53] So, I did the whole thing: one hour of technical presentation, which required slides, to the intro screen, to -- and the audience dropped away; I was like, "What's going on here?" Wow. And I'm a techie. I'm a coder; I know this stuff. So, that was – it was pretty painful. And I can totally empathize with this thing of – the speakers are trying – what do I click on.
A lot of people have got used to Zoom now; that's cool. But Zoom is just one type of platform; there's a whole bunch of specialist virtual webinar platforms. So, maybe walk us through what the state of the tech is at the moment. What is working and what is – and you don’t have to name names. I think we're more interested in, as a speaker, what am I going to experience? What should the industry do? How do companies make it better? [0:19:58]
Courtney Stanley: [0:19:59] Yeah, that's a great question. And I think – what I have seen is that there has truly ben an explosion of different types of platforms that you can use as an event professional, as a speaker. If you want something, it's probably out there at this point, so I have to give a lot of credit to these tech companies that have truly evolved and evolved quickly, and listened to the feedback that they were getting from their users in order to improve the experience.
Because it has become quite competitive in the virtual landscape in terms of the technology that is available. But what I will say that I think can improve from the event tech provider perspective is the way the technology is explained to the – your audience or to your buyers. So, what I keep hearing from event professionals over and over again and from speakers too is, I don't know what to use and I don't really know the differences between X, Y and Z, and what type of support will I really have?
I just started working with an organization as their event MC, and one of the selling points that I was able to – or one of the values that I was able to provide to them when pitching my services was talking about my background in event tech and how I've spent years educating audiences on how to optimize and implement event technology into your event. So, it doesn't feel like it's an extra add-on headache, stressful type of situation, but it's something that improves the attendee experience.
And I think that having that background is also helpful in providing me with a user experience perspective. So, it's a little bit easier for me to go to a provider and say, "Hey. I'm not getting it or my clients aren't getting it. Can you just give us a document that's a step by step of how to use this product in this way." One of the opportunities that providers have right now is breaking it down and frankly, dumbing down the technology. And creating document and educational webinars and whatever it takes to really easily explain the tech.
Because aside from technology, meeting professionals are already stressed-out people; they've got so much on their plate. Technology completely paralyzes then in a lot of situations, and the easier that you can make it for these people to feel comfortable and supported with the tech, the better their experience is going to be. And the better the speaker and the audience's experience is going to be too. [0:22:39]
Richard Rodger: [0:22:41] Yeah, it's – it seems like the industry is focusing on using Zoom as the basic standard. And if you have other people – and frankly, I've – having used a bunch of platforms and delivered webinars and been on panels and a bunch of different platforms, you can do a lot better than Zoom. It's – but you're absolutely right. Some of the interfaces and the user experiences as a result are pretty complicated, especially on the speaker/MC end of things. [0:23:16]
Courtney Stanley: [0:23:18] Yeah. I totally agree with that. People are leaning toward using platforms like Zoom because it's comfortable, honestly. [0:23:25]
Richard Rodger: [0:23:25] They know it; they know it. 0:23:26]
Courtney Stanley: [0:23:26] Yeah, it's comfortable. They've used it at least a couple times; they generally know how it works. If they only have to click a couple more buttons to figure out how to create a webinar instead of a meeting, then maybe they'll choose that path. But I couldn't agree more that there are other platforms that have been thoughtful and thinking about a real, true, live event experience.
So, not a meeting experience with 10 people, but a real, true live event, and all of the different components that go into creating an event experience. Things like exhibitors and trade shows and different overlapping sessions and multiple speakers. And it's a very – it can be a very chaotic experience, so it's important to make sure that the provider that you choose isn't necessarily the most comfortable, but it's the most effective in terms of achieving whatever objectives you have for that event. [0:24:19]
Richard Rodger: [0:24:21] How should virtual events be structured? So, if someone is listening to this and they are planning to run mini-conference or webinar or they had previously run a conference – my previous company, we used to run a three-day conference; now they're thinking of going virtual. How should they be structured? Or you see people doing – it's going to be two full days on Zoom. You see people saying it's going to be over the next six weeks and it's two hours a day each week, or people doing it as half. What's the – what have you seen people doing and what actually works. [0:24:58]
Courtney Stanley: [0:25:01] I've seen people do a lot of different things, exactly what you were saying, where there's been a conference that's stretched over the period of two weeks, where it's just two hours a day. I've seen conferences that literally run from the moment you take your first sip of coffee until you have to make dinner for your family at night. The most important thing, when considering the structure or format of your conference, is thinking about who your audience is.
First and foremost, your audience is made up of human beings, which means that our attention span is not going to be super impressive. And because everybody, for the most part, is working from home right now, there are going to be a lot more distractions than if they were sitting in an office or attending in person.
So, in my personal opinion, from the different types of events that I've seen, truly, the most effective way to keep an audience is to keep it short. Even if it's just a couple days of just a couple hours a day, or if you do one day and you just have three hours of really compelling content, it's almost too much when you give people 5,000 options to join. Because for example, there's a conference that's going on right now and it spans for four or five days. And it runs from the wee early hours of the morning up until the evening. And what I have found is that even just myself, there are too many options for me to choose from.
And in order to know what's going on or even what sessions are airing, I have to constantly be checking in. Do I want to attend this one; do I not want to attend this one? And it gets to a point where I just – I feel like I have other things to do. But if it were to be just – we're doing it one day. It's going to be a couple hours of really phenomenal content.
Then I know what's going on. And as a user, I can say, "Perfect, I'll block my calendar for those couple hours. I can get work done at a different time, and that's it." So, I'm finding that the more simple formats are more effective and the attendance is higher than if it's stretched or there are too many options for people to choose from. [0:27:12]
Richard Rodger: [0:27:13] Yeah, so we're talking bitesized; we're talking maybe reduce the number of tracks. Spread it out over a couple of weeks, more- [0:27:22]
Courtney Stanley: [0:27:25] Well, it's interesting. A friend of mine runs an event technology production company, and she was telling me the other day that one of her clients wanted to not change her agenda at all from the in-person experience to – when transitioning to virtual. And she had 800 speakers, 800 speakers. [0:27:46]
Richard Rodger: [0:27:46] Wow. Oh, my goodness. Oh, wow! [0:27:48]
Courtney Stanley: [0:27:48] That is too much; that's unreal. [0:27:50]
Richard Rodger: [0:27:52] Wow. Oh, my goodness. [0:27:56]
Courtney Stanley: [0:27:57] I know; I know. So, I think people just have to rethink. What does the average person sitting at home. what is reasonable for them to participate in and what's going to work with their schedule? And that would be my best advice. [0:28:08]
Richard Rodger: [0:28:10] Is virtual MC now a job, do you think? That's what you're doing, so is- [0:28:15]
Courtney Stanley: [0:28:15] Oh, yeah.
Richard Rodger: [0:28:16] -is it a job and is it here to stay? [0:28:17]
Courtney Stanley: [0:28:19] It's definitely a job right now. I would say that I actually – in the difference areas and services that I provide – as a keynote speaker, as a board facilitator, as an event MC – I think that the event MC side of my business has by far done the best in terms of people needing those services right now.
It's interesting, because conferences that maybe didn't need an MC or had the CEO helping to transition things or whatever it is, they're now realizing – and this is a really positive thing – that it's so important to have somebody who professionally spends their time understanding how to transition events in a virtual world. So, it's just completely different. So, I would say first and foremost, yes, there is definitely a job for a virtual event MC right now.
Now in terms of looking forward, I think that there will be a role for a virtual event MC if events go hybrid, but – and by hybrid, I mean they're both an in-person and virtual experience. So, there's live streaming that's happening. However, in the future, looking even a little bit further down the road, I don't know that a virtual event MC will be necessary if they have an in-person event MC that can easily be recorded and posted online later or live streamed.
I do think that hybrid events are here to stay, so if that is the trend moving forward, then I think that there will be a role for the event MC. But if people go back to just in person, then no. I don't think that that virtual role is necessary. [0:30:00]
Richard Rodger: [0:30:03] It'll be really interesting to see what happens. You can imagine a scenario where the – even in a hybrid event, where the virtual MC is like the anchor on TV news or something. And they're programming things- [0:30:14]
Courtney Stanley: [0:30:14] Probably.
Richard Rodger: [0:30:15] -in that way. And that means you actually – in that scenario you have two MCs, because the person who's doing the live MCing is – that's a totally different game. You need to be on stage. There's no way you can be handling the virtual end of things. [0:30:30]
Courtney Stanley: [0:30:31] No. I agree. And I think that the – what could very easily happen with a virtual audience if you do a hybrid experience. Everybody onsite's going to get wrapped up in that onsite world, but you're going to need two teams of people. So, you have your onsite team and then you have your virtual team, and I think that the virtual team does require an MC, because it would be way too easy to have the virtual audience be forgotten.
And then they feel that; they feel like they're not engaged. They're not part of it; it's not an inclusive experience. And then they fall off the radar and don't sign up again. And then that hurts the reach of our business or your event. So, I totally agree, Richard. I think that the – in the world of hybrid, there will be an in-person event MC and there will be a virtual event MC. [0:31:19]
Richard Rodger: [0:31:20] Yeah. It's going to be super interesting to see what happens. You know who I like? You know SpaceX, the rocket company? [0:31:25]
Courtney Stanley: [0:31:26] Mm-hmm.
Richard Rodger: [0:31:27] They do virtual events every time they launch a rocket. And they do it really well. They have been doing – because it has to be virtual. But even then, there's people nearby and live, whatever. They've always done it really well. That's one to check out, just for that model, where there's an anchor person who – on the virtual side who pulls it all together for people.
We're going to see you on our screens and we're going to see you in person, and it's going to be interesting to see which one wins or which one ends up being the place to be over the next – I don't know – three years, five years? It's a whole industry. [0:32:16]
Courtney Stanley: [0:32:16] I know; I know. Yeah, the industry is – it's definitely inevitable, but it will evolve after this year. It already has in a lot of ways. But there is that sense of just wanting to get back to face to face. And the face-to-face experience is absolutely invaluable. I don't think that anything can beat in-person and getting to know people and being inspired by someone who's standing in front of you.
Those are things that people love and will absolutely come back. But I think that the value and the benefits that come with virtual event experiences are here to stay. So, I think that it is – I think it's great that the industry is evolving in a way that is actually sustainable for the future. [0:33:00]
Richard Rodger: [0:33:01] Courtney, this has been so much fun, and really insightful. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us. [0:33:06]
Courtney Stanley: [0:33:07] Absolutely. This was absolutely my pleasure, and I had a great time chatting with you, Richard, so thanks so much for having me on. [0:33:13]
Richard Rodger: [0:33:14] Wonderful.
Endnote
Richard Rodger: [0:33:15] You can find the transcript of this podcast and any links mentioned on our podcast page at Voxgig.com/podcast. Subscribe for weekly editions, where we talk to the people who make the developer community work. For even more, read our newsletter. You can subscribe at Voxgig.com/newsletter, or follow our Twitter @voxgig. Thanks for listening. Catch you next time. [0:33:42]